I limp=reriase from time to time,- and in tight aggressive games, its probably a profitable move.
However, what ive noticed is that it is precisely in games like that when you have SAVVY players that your not going to get payed off very well.
For example, lets say you limp UTG and someone else limps after you. I look down at AQo, and i limp also (which is what i would do, if there were limpers in the pot already--i dont generally raise AQ or even AK when there are limpers because im looking to hit a flop, since im not going to narrow the field that much with a raise)
So then lets say the button raises, the blinds muck and you reraise. I may muckit right there, or else i might call and hope to flop broadway or trip Q's, or 3 to an ace high flush, or something like that. The thing is, i will KNOW you have either aces or kings, and so will anyone with half a frickin brain. I dont think ive ever LRR'ed with anything but AA in fact (i dont even do it with kings-i aint about to let A3o outdraw me for cheap), except for once i remember i did it with pocket 4s (hit my set against an overpair, obv.)) , once with 67s (lost that one mizerably if i recall correctly)) and once with J10s [flopped a boat--whee!]. So three times in all the years ive been playin have i done it with non AA or KK hands. And i cant tell you for sure, but i was probably either drunk at the time, or else running so hot that i would gladly chase a 2 outer for 2 big bets cold against God himself.
Anyways, like lets say im in there against you with AQ im in there looking to flop better than TPTK, and you wont get any action from me unless i flop a nutty hand, like QQ or AA or AQ-- and even if i flop an A or an AQ, ill give you a teensy bit of action and test you to see if you have KK-, but otherwise, ill get the hell out. Contrast that to a situation when you raise UTG, and i decide 'man, screw that TW guy, he's runnin hot and thinks he can raise any 2, and besides that he's totally obnoxious in the chat window, talking about BFing my mom and whatnot. I think im gonna reraise that basspole!' Then if i flopped TPTK youd have me till the river (unless you 4 bet me maybe), or top 2 god forbid, in which case youd very likely get me for 3-4 big bets on the turn before the light bulb finally would light.
So, i guess what i mean to say is limp RRing is a double edged sword. It often gets a lot more money into the pot early when you have by far the best of it, but at the same time it narrows your hand down to pretty much one of two monsters, and in the type of game where youd want to make that play, your often going to see players that are savvy enough not to call you down with a shitty pair, or even TPTK in lots of cases.
Actually, heres an example from awhile back, that i havent forgotten. At the local B&M, i pulled off a limp RR with aces UTG, and floped K45 rainbow or something like that and i led. I think i got a couple guys to peel one, but the thing is that the original raiser looks at me, turns over AK, and says "no good?" and mucks his hand.
'I would peel one,' he said, 'but hittin my kicker will just make you a set- so i muck'
i showed my aces after everyone folded on the turn, and was like 'you didnt put me on queens there huh?' Apparently not.
So, besides takin a lot of crap from people at the table for exposing his hand like that and talking about the hand in the middle of it just so he could show us how cool he was for makin a big laydown (which, even though we are all friends and all chill at that table, lets face it-- that was pretty fuckin bad etiquette), he showed me that the limp RR is not always the best option, and can be an action killer. If Id have raised the hand normally, hed have 3 bet me, and i would have flat called, then we wouldve had the 4th of july on the flop, then likely at least a bet apeice on turn and river.
Now ill give you that that guy is pretty solid, and not everyone is. But eh- somethin to consider anyways.
Anyways alls im yellin is LRRs are probably still profitable in games that are so tight that UTG is as good of a steal position as the button, but i also think that even though its the best way to jam your preflop advantage down peoples throats, you are often going to lose out on action on future streets, unless you manage to find a game (like piers did apparently) with some shitbrick in it who calls bottom pair to the river in the face of a limp reraise (wince).
So, as usual, in my gratuitously bombastic and verbose fashion, i have delivered you all the two cents of a bad player, which i couldve done using 1/4 of the bandwith that i did. ha, ha and HA!
uh...ya. ok dude. calm down.
what???
yeah...
Statistics: Posted by MecosKing — Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:36 am
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I believe as you go up in limits this ploy can be used a little more often because the games are generally more aggressive. At the lower limits probably including limits up to 510 I would just go ahead and raise unless there is a raising maniac to act behind you which will allow you to trap him and perhaps others in for three or more bets.
That being said I pulled the old limp reraise just yesterday for a very healthy pot. I got to raise preflop, on the flop, on the turn and just got to bet on the river damn.
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with
![[Ad]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ad.gif "The Ace of Diamonds")
, ![[Ah]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ah.gif "The Ace of Hearts")
. Hero calls, 3 folds, MP2 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop: (12 SB)
![[7c]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7c.gif "The Seven of Clubs")
, ![[4h]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4h.gif "The Four of Hearts")
, ![[9h]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9h.gif "The Nine of Hearts")
(4 players)SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (11 BB)
![[2s]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2s.gif "The Two of Spades")
(3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, Hero raises, MP2 folds, SB calls.
River: (16 BB)
![[Ts]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ts.gif "The Ten of Spades")
(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.
Final Pot: 18 BB
Results in white below:
SB has 4s 3s (one pair, fours).
Hero has Ad Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 18 BB.
Statistics: Posted by piersmajestyk — Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:06 pm
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The thing is, I'm NOT doing this to be tricky. I'm doing it because I find I steal too god-damned many blinds when I raise AA or KK, and for that matter, the tables I've been playing with have seemed pretty aggressive, so the limp-reraise ploy usually works. What's that you say? My table selection sucks, and I should be playing at tables where EP raises get no respect? Yeah, I know. You're very clever, now fuck off and let me rant.
ANYWAY, I don't ALWAYS limp my big pairs in EP. If I am at a table where I think I'll probably get some calls, I'll go ahead and raise the fuckers. But I really HATE stealing blinds with these hands. If I raise AK or AQ and steal the blinds, hell, I'm alright with that! But I really think AA and KK are too strong to be satisfied with blind-steals. Anyway, here's some numbers. They're all from 5-10 over the past month. It's a small sample, but we'll see what we can see.
First off, AA. The rockets. The American Airlines:
There have been 9 hands that I've limp-reraised. On those hands, I've won an average of 6.94 big bets per hand. HOWEVER, there were also 6 hands that I unsuccesfully attempted to limp-reraise (i.e. no one raised). Tragically enough, I've lost an average of 1.06 big bets per hand in these cases. So, overall, I've won 3.74 BB/hand when attempting a limp-reraise. I've played 40 total AA hands over the month, with an average win of 3.21 BB/hand.
Now, let's move on to KK. The Kowboys. King Kong. The gorilla?
I've limp-reraised KK 10 times, and averaged 2.71BB/hand in those instances. I've unsuccesfully attempted a limp-reraise an absurd 12 times, and averaged an incredible .17 BB/hand for those. All told, I've averaged 1.32 BB/hand when limping KK. I've played 47 total KK hands over the month, with an average win of 2.5 BB/hand.
What can we glean from all this? I don't have a fucking clue.
Seriously, though, it does seem to indicate that the limp-reraise is a profitable move...when it works. When it doesn't, I obviously lose a lot of value for a premium hand, and that's not good at all. It also doesn't help that I probably misplay the hands a good bit when the raise doesn't happen.
Anyway, I think these results (though admittedly over a small sample) show that I should continue limping AA and KK at times, but only when I think that (a) there's a real chance of only stealing the blinds with a raise, and (b) there's a decent chance that someone will raise behind me. I'll admit that I've occasionally tried to pull a limp-reraise at a table that doesn't really warrant it, i.e. a loose-passive one. But if used properly, I think it can be a profitable weapon to add to your arsenal.
Or, you could simply pick better games than I do.
-TW
Statistics: Posted by TightWad — Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:00 pm
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