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If I have KK on an ace-high flop, and I get raised or check-raised, I'm gonna drop my hand the majority of the time. In the hand you played, look at it from the BB's perspective; you were the preflop raiser, so that ace is pretty likely to have hit you. Can you see him check-raising your bet (along with MP's call) with anything that your kings can beat? Pretty doubtful in my opinion. It would take a pretty rare player to check-raise you with something like middle pair in this situation. And if he has an ace with a shit kicker, a 3-bet might slow him down, but he's not gonna drop it
It always sucks to see that ace on the flop when you have KK, but if someone raises or check-raises you, you usually need a pretty good reason not to drop your hand on the spot. Good fold.
-TW
Statistics: Posted by TightWad — Thu May 26, 2005 12:11 pm
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Are you willing to pay another 2.5 big bets to see if you are right or if you can get 2 outs? If he had 67, the turn gives him the straight so what would you be beating then? I would just fold to the check raise and move on.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Thu May 26, 2005 12:10 pm
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Thanks for the reply.
One of my main problems is players consistently cold call with any pair and any Ace at the low levels. I have a very difficult time figuring out if I'm truly beaten or not. In similar situations I've called the check-raise and then went into check call mode and consistently been shown an Ace at the river. So I'm wondering if perhaps I'd save money in the long run if I lay KK down at the flop with an Ace on the board, multiple opponents, and another player showing strength.
If you reraise in this spot, what is your reaction to a call? Are you firing out on the turn? What if he 4 bets? Are you still calling or are you now done with the hand?
Statistics: Posted by Big_Leon — Thu May 26, 2005 11:12 am
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Nevertheless, I think there were two options for you on the flop - you could have three-bet it, or you could have flat-called, if you were scared of the ace. What I would do in this situation would be pretty read-dependent, but in either situation, I'd find it really difficult to throw away my kings to a check-raise unless I was positive that BB had already outplayed me. The thing is that pre-flop action was pretty weak all-around. You have two cold-callers pre-flop, and BB calls an extra bet with the garbage he had? That seems very fishy to me. So with this group, I think I would have been more apt to actually re-raise BB, if I thought he was weak enough. Barring a decent read on any of these guys, I would have called the extra bet on the flop, and check-called it down, unless there was any significant action on the later streets.
To be honest, with the way pre-flop was played by the other guys, the best hand I could give any credit for would be two pair anyway - with that in mind, then, I've really got quite a few outs at a decent redraw, if I am behind on the flop. I'm only a sure-fire loser if I've put someone on an ace...
I dunno - I'd like to hear what the others have to say about this hand. But I don't think I would have been able to fold KK to that check-raise. Maybe this is me playing it weakly...
Statistics: Posted by musicman80 — Thu May 26, 2005 10:37 am
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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with
![[Kh]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kh.gif "The King of Hearts")
, ![[Kc]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kc.gif "The King of Clubs")
. 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.
Flop: (8.50 SB)
![[5d]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5d.gif "The Five of Diamonds")
, ![[As]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/As.gif "The Ace of Spades")
, ![[8h]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/8h.gif "The Eight of Hearts")
(4 players)BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, BB raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls.
Turn: (6.75 BB)
![[4c]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4c.gif "The Four of Clubs")
(2 players)BB bets, MP2 calls.
River: (8.75 BB)
![[4h]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4h.gif "The Four of Hearts")
(2 players)BB checks, MP2 checks.
Final Pot: 8.75 BB
BB shows
![[8c]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/8c.gif "The Eight of Clubs")
![[5c]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5c.gif "The Five of Clubs")
two pair, eights and fives.MP2 doesn't show
![[7h]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7h.gif "The Seven of Hearts")
![[7s]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7s.gif "The Seven of Spades")
two pair, sevens and fours.Was this a weak play on my part to fold to the check raise on the flop? With 3 callers to my preflop bet, that
was a terrible card in my mind. When I bet out and got called and then check raised I took that as a sign that at least one of them has me beat. Now I know that the check raise could mean more than he's got an Ace or set. He could be making this move with something like a 67 and trying to cause the table to freeze up and give him a cheap draw at his open-ended. That is a play I'll use myself occasionally but not from such a bad position.Turns out I was correct at that point and was in fact behind, but should I always tuck tail and run in this scenario? If I don't fold then ultimately I would go on to win this hand but I'm really just chasing one of my Kings because the betting has told me I'm beat. Obviously, if no Ace hits then that check raise isn't going to make me give up the hand at that point with a ragged board like that.
Thoughts? Comments? Lay it on me. I'm really looking to improve my decisions in my LLH play. Thanks in advance.
Statistics: Posted by Big_Leon — Thu May 26, 2005 7:10 am
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