AK - You convinced me. I'll just call/limp with this, but mix it up and limp/raise it in EP from time to time and raise it in LP.
AA - Thing is... if he has 88 or a straight or flush draw he's calling anyway. The only hands he's going to fold here are junk like J7 and K8... of course I would hate myself in the morning if I let him suck out with some runner-runner crap, and the pot is big enough... yeah ok, I guess it was right to push, for my peace of mind if nothing else.
Calling raises with small/medium PP's can't be a "set or forget" thing though or it won't be +EV since these guys raise so much junk that they can easily get away from, but at least I will have some value when I make a play. This would however support calling with SC's as well.
Statistics: Posted by Stoneburg — Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:33 pm
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No offense to Ice, as he OBVIOUSLY knows more about poker than I do, and probably ever will, but I play A LOT of B&M games w/ players you're playing with, and you can generally make more money out of them by letting them hit their TP that they can't let go of...
On the AA hand, just be happy you won a buyin w/ Aces... THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO CATCH UP... Regardless of if he's playing to 2 outs or not (or maybe he had a straight draw or something), you'd have felt like crap if he caught up to you... I'd ALWAYS rather win a smaller pot than possibly lose a bigger one...
Like I said, I will usually call a raise w/ small to medium PPs if others in the hand have a stack behind them to win... If they're raising $20 w/ $200-$400 behind, it's a call, as they'll NEVER get away from whatever it is that they have... A good thing to try is that, after tripping, bet out if you're first to act instead of checking to the raiser... I think you'll get raised about 50-75% of the time...
Statistics: Posted by MVPSPORTS — Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:15 pm
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Seems like there are two schools on how to play AKo in this company. Mvpsports recommending limping to trap Ax and Kx, and Ice advocating postflop aggression, even limp/raising. Now I'm even more confused than when I first posted...
T8s - Fold. Got it.
JT - Yeah... what was I thinking betting there (50 though, not 70). The maniac was however AMAZED that I folded it.
AA - But if he has a PP he's drawing to two outs... still, I know what you mean about giving free cards... hmm... still not sure about this though.
QQ - Well the table WAS super-aggressive, I think this was like one of the two or at the most three, times that the pot wasn't raised preflop the whole evening. I agree that it's a bit optimistic to believe I am ahead when I get two callers... damnit.
So in general the advice is to play more PP's? I actually forgot about one hand, maybe because nothing much happened, I called a 6xBB raise with 99, 4 people saw the flop, two over cards and a flushdraw, someone bet and I folded. Only other PP I got was 22 and I folded that twice. But should I really be calling 10xBB raises with medium/low PP's? Actually... maybe I should.
I like the idea of raising some SC's and stuff in LP, problem here was that when I was in LP it was *extremely* rare that the pot wasn't raised infront of me.
Also, what's the rule about "betting in the dark"? I mean this wasn't just done UTG but from all positions before the cards were dealt. On one hand isn't it "acting out of turn"? On the other hand... you can't really stop someone from somehow indicating that they're gonna do it anyway...
Statistics: Posted by Stoneburg — Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:40 pm
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3) Junk..fold
4) AA..perfect
5) JT....check to see the action on the flop..I dont like your chances here
6) AK...you lost big here, but I have no problem with your play against these fools
7) AA..I push that flop every time. The pot is too big to let him catch up. He might have 88 and catch up with another 8.
8) QQ...I might check raise that flop, but how you played it is fine.
All in all, I say you played pretty well. The only thing that cost you was the gamble with with pushing AK all in preflop. You still had a nice win and if the AK beats QQ, you have a monster night.
Statistics: Posted by iceman5 — Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:10 pm
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First off... when I play at my games, there are ALWAYS a bunch of LAGs and calling stations... That actually makes up at least 50% of the table... Another 30% play Aanything and Kanything... There's usually me and one or two other guys that actually know what the hell is going on... And, I generally respond the same way you do... By just playing REALLY tight, and pushing hard w/ the hands I do play... I was going to suggest betting out a little bit more w/ marginal hands if they respect you THAT much, but if they'll call basically anything, I'd stick to playing tight... As long as you keep track of who's who, you should be alright (ie... a 6xBB raise from a LAG doesn't mean much, but by a TA means stay outta the way)... I think I would get a little pissed though if these idiots are straddling EVERY hand or raising ITD all the time... That's just bad poker, and can be a real pain in the ass...
I'll comment on some of your hands...
AQo... I probably would've called the LAG instead of reraising... You're only gonna hit like 1 out of 3 times, and he's gonna most likely call no matter what happens... Also, I learned the VERY hard way that most people at my game LOVE playing Ax and Kx, even to a raise, and If I've got pocket Qs on a K107 flop, I'll usually reluctantly let it go, as I'm SURE one of them has K3 or something, and won't let it go for all their money...
J10o... It's a little hard to figure out the pot sizes, but I'm pretty sure the pot on this hand going into the flop was about $65-70... I don't like the fact that you bet the pot here... You gotta remember that most of the other people at the table don't think much past their own hand, and if they've got a J or 2, or possibly a higher PP, they're gonna call... You're not gonna scare very many people away here... You're just wasting money... Remember also that these people don't know anything about pot odds... If they're gonna call for $30, they're gonna call for $70, and it still shows strength by you... I would throw out a 1/2 pot bet here, and be done w/ the hand if they call... You have better opportunities to have better odds...
2nd AKo... Theres NO WAY I push there... honestly, in MP, w/ possibly 2 or more people in the hand already w/ others to go, I may muck my cards... Either that, or I'd call and see a flop... If you push and ANYONE calls, you're an underdog... At games where I feel like I'm better than most of the players, I think it's definite -EV to push where you're a cointoss at best... Remember that even maniacs will hit a hand every now and again... Don't let the fact that they're nuts let your guard down... I know that you have that tight table image, but w/ a decent raise and a call behind, you gotta think that these people have hands they're willing to play with, even though, ironically, neither did w/ this hand... I don't really contemplate "folding equity" against maniacs and calling stations...
Honestly, at most of these games, I like limping w/ AK... it lets all the idiots in w/ their Kx or Ax, and they'll NEVER let it go if they flop TP, no matter how much you bet... Occasionally, you walk into a K3 2pr, but I think the times you have AK and they have KJ or KQ are much greater... This is a BIG winner for me over the long run...
2nd AA hand... I LOVE your push there... There's already $300 in the pot, and if you take it down right there, you make a $200 profit... What you have to remember in these games is to NOT BE GREEDY... You're isolating yourself as a HUGE favorite to win a nice pot... Letting him see free cards is always a bad idea... I would've pushed also...
QQ limp... At a SUPER aggressive table, I will often limp UTG w/ QQ,AA,KK... It didn't work out, and that sucks... You shouldn't do it unless you're willing to lay them down if it doesn't work out for you... When the 3 diamonds flop, I would've made a bet, but been done w/ the hand when they BOTH called... It's funny though, that a guy w/ a 7-high flush is slowplaying... I'm sure he must lose his ass more often than not playing like that...
I think if you get away from the AKo hand, and bet out a little less on the JT hand, you walk away up $400, which is a pretty decent profit for a couple hours work... I would recommend limping w/ AK to let some weak Aces and Kings in some hands... I promise you they won't be able to get away from them when they hit their TP... And I would call PPs for a raise if I'm getting the odds to call (usually around 10x my money back)...
Sorry I'm so longwinded...
Statistics: Posted by MVPSPORTS — Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:40 pm
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Of the ten players last night you can characterise 2 as TAG (I'm one obviously), rest as either LP, LAG's or Maniacs. There's 4 "good" players, meaning people who understand the concept of pot odds and usually won't put their entire stack at risk without a hand, the 2 TAG's, one LP and one LAG. My table image is "super tight" and people usually give me credit for a monster when I bet, and I jokingly claim that I only play AA and sometimes KK.
Two maniacs at the table. One of them posts a stradle or "bets in the dark" preflop every other hand or so, 5-10x the BB usually. The other maniac does this a bit less often but will often call in the dark (even a raise). A normal raise is 6xBB but it's often raised more, sometimes up to 12xBB.
Due to these oversized raises I am barely seeing any flops. I don't want to call off 10% of my stack with a speculative hand so even though I know there can't be a real value to these raises I fold pretty much everything except QQ-AA and AK to the 10xBB+ raises. I'll call a 5xBB raise with a pocket pair, or quality SC's if it's multiway. These are all the hands I played:
AQo - Maniac B to my immediate right raises 6xBB preflop in EP (means nothing to him), I re-raise to 21xBB to isolate. I know he will call but this will make sure it is heads up unless someone else has a *real* hand (JJ+ or at least AJs). It's heads up and the flop comes KQT. Pot is ~90, he goes all-in for 150 more. I think for a while (seriously), he says he has a real hand (and this is actually a tell, believe it or not, that he has either TP or an OP), I figure I'm beat and fold. He shows K9s.
AKo - I raise it up to 6xBB in EP and one of the blinds (LAG) call. Flop is Qxx (two suited). He checks, I bet pot, he calls. This either means that he has a draw, PP or has hit one of the rags. If he has a draw he will not give up until the river, but I think I can force him off a smaller pair. Turn is another rag, I bet twice as much as before, he thinks for a while and folds.
T8s - Maniac A, 3:d to my right raises 6xBB in the dark UTG. I make a super-loose call, Button calls and a blind calls. Flop comes K56 with a flushdraw, none in my suit. Blind checks, Maniac checks. Pot is ~50, I bet 25, everyone folds. Here I figured that the two in early position would have bet if they had a K, flush, PP or straight draw so I only had to go through the Button. I can easily represent the K or a high PP due to my table image. My bet was a bit small though, only half the pot, but it was a "convenient" bet (we have 1, 5 and 25 chips) and people aren't too concerned with pot odds here, if they have a flush draw they will call you no matter.
AA - Maniac A raises 12xBB UTG in the dark, Maniac B calls. I re-raise to 37xBB. Maniac A calls. Flop is QTx, Maniac A checks, I go all-in, he thinks for a while and calls with T8. My AA stands.
JTo - UTG (LAG) raises to 3.5xBB, *everyone* calls. I'm in SB and see that BB (TAG) doesn't like his hand (no fear of RR) so I make a loose call. Flop is J22 (two clubs) and I bet pot. UTG+1 (LAG) goes all-in, maniac A calls. I reluctantly fold thinking that there are 3 possible hands they can have: A flush draw, A deuce, and a Jack (likely a better kicker), I'm dominated by two and slightly ahead of one. LAG shows Q7s for flush draw, Maniac wins with A2o.
AKo - Maniac A has raised 12xBB UTG again, Maniac B calls, I push. LAG behind me calls, both maniacs fold. LAG has QQ and hits another Q, taking 2/3 of my stack (I'm down to just below the buy in).
AA - Maniac B goes all-in (possibly in the dark) for 50xBB UTG. I just call, maniac A calls. Flop is 552, maniac A checks, I push, he folds. This was BAD play by me I think, I should have given him a free card and let him catch something. Anyway, my AA stands against some random rags.
QQ - I limp UTG figuring that the LAG on my left will raise and I can get in a re-raise. Wrong! The whole table except for the other TAG limps. Flop comes 346 all diamonds. I have the
![[Qd]](http://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qd.gif "The Queen of Diamonds")
. I bet it small-ish, get two callers a TP (new) and Maniac A (in SB). Turn is another 4. I bet a bit bigger (figuring the callers for flushdraws and a smaller OP), both call. River is a non-diamond rag, Maniac A checks, I check and TP checks. Maniac A is upset I didn't bet, he was slowplaying the 7-high flush (7xs), however, TP takes the pot after checking behind with the turned boat (33, his first hand, he told me today he didn't realised he had filled up and was worried about the flush).I think I did 3-4 mistakes total for the evening:
Calling a raise in MP with T8s. It's a bit too loose to do out of position, it ended well due to my table image and everyone missing the flop but still a very marginal play I think.
Betting out with the JT after hitting TP in a multiway pot. I should have checked. If only one person had bet I could have check-raised, if he got a caller or there was a raise I would have had an easy fold. Betting TP with a bad kicker into a multiway pot on a paired board is probably not smart.
Pushing with AA after the flop comes 255. Either I am way ahead or way behind, I should have given a free card, especially since the maniac will call if he hits practically anything on the turn.
Limping QQ UTG. Not sure about this play. I was hoping for a raise and some callers behind me so I could push, but it might be the wrong play.
I only made a profit of 134 which isn't even a full buy in. Obviously I made a huge loss on my AK when I pushed preflop but I think that was the right play since the fold equity is huge (with my table image) and there's over 20 BB's in the pot already. But I felt that I should be able to win much more if I played differently... question is, how? I have an aversion to putting in 10% of my stack with a speculative hand, but I played for about 6 hours and only managed 8 hands. Of those I bluffed 2 and won, folded the worst hand twice (good), bet the worst hand thinking it was good once (bad) once, and pushed twice with either the best hand or with a coin-flop + fold equity (good). Still, I had AA twice, won two big pots with them and didn't even leave the game with a full buy ins profit
Now according to Caro, if people play "wrong" according to perfect game theory, it's always right to become more loose. Due to the unproportional preflop raising however, I'm becoming very tight. I would really like some feedback and tips on how to beat this game more.
Statistics: Posted by Stoneburg — Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:48 am
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