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Live Poker Forum - Online Poker Forums & Hand Analysis Poker Forum 2006-03-21T15:34:41-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/feed.php?f=24&t=12219&mode 2006-03-21T15:34:41-06:00 2006-03-21T15:34:41-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98353#p98353 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by briachek — Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:34 pm


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2006-03-21T15:13:06-06:00 2006-03-21T15:13:06-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98344#p98344 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]>
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1617805
pokenum -o 9h th jc 8h - ad 6d 5h 4s - kc kh 7s 3d - tc js ks 8d -- qd kd 9c
Omaha Hi: 528 enumerated boards containing 9c Kd Qd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Th 9h 8h 1 0.19 312 59.09 215 40.72 0.205
4s Ad 6d 5h 136 25.76 392 74.24 0 0.00 0.258
7s Kc 3d Kh 176 33.33 352 66.67 0 0.00 0.333
Ks Js Tc 8d 0 0.00 313 59.28 215 40.72 0.204

On the turn, assuming a safe card, you are in much better shape:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1617819
pokenum -o 9h th jc 8h - ad 6d 5h 4s - kc kh 7s 3d - tc js ks 8d -- qd kd 9c 3s
Omaha Hi: 32 enumerated boards containing 3s 9c Kd Qd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Th 9h 8h 0 0.00 13 40.62 19 59.38 0.297
4s Ad 6d 5h 6 18.75 26 81.25 0 0.00 0.188
7s Kc 3d Kh 7 21.88 25 78.12 0 0.00 0.219
Ks Js Tc 8d 0 0.00 13 40.62 19 59.38 0.297

Now you're ahead of the game and a push is odds-worthy. Until I see something else, I think we assume that Bri's line may be the best from a math standpoint. If you include some potential fold equity it would jump up a bit more I'm sure. Of course, if you get heads up with the one caller you don't want to see (same str8, with flush draw) then you are not happy:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1617828
pokenum -o 9h th jc 8h - tc jd ks 8d -- qd kd 9c 3s
Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing 3s 9c Kd Qd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Th 9h 8h 0 0.00 9 22.50 31 77.50 0.388
Ks Tc Jd 8d 9 22.50 0 0.00 31 77.50 0.613

Now you're taking it in the can more often than you'd like.

To clarify my line, I would generally min raise there if I raised. That is probably not ideal, but at least it would give me a better idea where I stand. If I end up folding the nuts, that's something I can live with.

FWIW, here's Monk's assessment of str8s on his BTP FAQ page:

REMEMBER that straights are VERY VERY WEAK. On a GOOD table, where re-raises are almost always the nuts, you may now and again actually FOLD A NUT STRAIGHT ON THE FLOP! Here is an example: Flop brings 8d Ts Jd and you have 9s Qh 7c 4d on the BB after a few limps; you have the nut straight but should FOLD to a solid player re-raising the flop. He almost certainly has the same straight if he’s solid and may have a redraw to a bigger straight flush, or boat. If he does, you are potentially putting your WHOLE stack (say, $100) in the middle to SPLIT a small pot (maybe only $3-10) that’s currently in the middle, when your opponent could have a FREEROLL to win the whole thing! You could be risking $100 to win $3; not smart. Again, at the lowest levels, it’s not easy to put someone 100% on the nuts here so it is more correct to play it out.


I guess you'd have to figure out what he means by 'at the lowest levels' before you decide to proceed. I know for sure that I run away at a $100 table to that action.

Statistics: Posted by JDLush — Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:13 pm


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2006-03-21T13:48:30-06:00 2006-03-21T13:48:30-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98308#p98308 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by briachek — Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:48 pm


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2006-03-21T13:27:44-06:00 2006-03-21T13:27:44-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98298#p98298 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by JDLush — Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:27 pm


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2006-03-21T11:57:00-06:00 2006-03-21T11:57:00-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98268#p98268 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]>
Your instincts are all correct in this hand. UTG+1 had the nut straight with an unsuited 42!!! No redraw there. He would never lay that hand down either, but someone would (I would) to a repot on the flop and firing all-in again on the river. I stacked him 20 minutes later set over set. I made a note and am on the lookout for him again.

I have a tendancy to give people too much credit for a hand when I am new to a game and/or site. If this same hand was on Bodog, I would have gone nuclear. The play at Stars, up till now, has been far better than at Bodog, and I have done well stealing small pots as a result. There are fewer sheriffs in town at Stars, it seems.

Statistics: Posted by emmasdad — Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:57 am


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2006-03-21T03:11:42-06:00 2006-03-21T03:11:42-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98144#p98144 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]>
I really think that at the 25 you'd be money ahead never laying down the nuts regardless.

And at every level I've played, I'd say the same would apply to at least 75% of the field, although it starts to get a little more civilized at $100 and up.

Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:11 am


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2006-03-21T02:33:03-06:00 2006-03-21T02:33:03-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98131#p98131 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:33 am


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2006-03-21T02:27:45-06:00 2006-03-21T02:27:45-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98130#p98130 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:27 am


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2006-03-21T02:29:26-06:00 2006-03-21T02:25:54-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98127#p98127 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:25 am


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2006-03-21T02:21:13-06:00 2006-03-21T02:21:13-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98126#p98126 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:21 am


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2006-03-21T00:45:54-06:00 2006-03-21T00:45:54-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98110#p98110 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by briachek — Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:45 am


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2006-03-21T00:45:33-06:00 2006-03-21T00:45:33-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98109#p98109 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by emmasdad — Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:45 am


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2006-03-20T23:57:21-06:00 2006-03-20T23:57:21-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98100#p98100 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]>
I agree that a flat call with big bet on a blank turn has a lot of flexibility--in addition to getting some dead money in there if anyone with less than made nuts folds.

Also, if you are getting freerolled, it's much better to get freerolled on a blank turn than on the flop. If they have JT with diamonds, they have 8 outs, so your equity probably isn't horrible on the turn. Something like AJT with no diamonds has fewer, and QQJT would have 9. But I really doubt these guys are that strong at the 25.

I also think laying down the nuts is also a bit of a deep-stack thing. If you're playing 25 and have $100 along with another tight player. You pot the nuts with no redraw and he raises you pot. If it's a LAG, I'll probably re-raise him back, but if it's a tight player, I'll seriously consider laying down at that point if I have no improvement chances. But on the improvement end, I might call to see the turn on something as thin as a runner-runner flush, since the turn will tell me if I have that redraw or not.

There are definitely situations where laying down the nuts is the best play, but I think you have to be pretty picky about them.

Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:57 pm


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2006-03-20T23:23:42-06:00 2006-03-20T23:23:42-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98093#p98093 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]>
- set
- same straight (waited for safe turn card before he committed)
- two pair or set with a flush draw

i'd call this bet on the flop and look to get it all in the middle on the turn.

fwiw, folding the nuts (esp. straights and sets) seems to me to be best when you get a lot of action on the flop (usu. by two other players) on a relatively coordinated board. one bet isn't that scary, and the raise from the short stack is nothing to worry about in terms of hand quality.

Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:23 pm


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2006-03-20T19:43:10-06:00 2006-03-20T19:43:10-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12219&p=98030#p98030 <![CDATA[Laying down the nuts on the flop]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:43 pm


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