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Live Poker Forum - Online Poker Forums & Hand Analysis Poker Forum 2008-04-09T23:28:58-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/feed.php?f=5&t=30696&mode 2008-04-09T23:28:58-06:00 2008-04-09T23:28:58-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317395#p317395 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]>
but since iceman plays on cake where pt is incompatible, i think 'feel' ends up being substantively more valuable, especially if you can develop an ability to develop the ability to make a thin value bet, or push or whatever, without the aid of statistical information.

Statistics: Posted by dropthe72 — Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 pm


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2008-04-09T22:44:57-06:00 2008-04-09T22:44:57-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317391#p317391 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]>

I agree with you to a large extent. Except for some basics like pot odds, reading your opponent is more important than math (without some basics, I have my doubts that you can get by, although it is possible just to memorize certain situations that you like/are willing to stack off, but I know you don't do that). Obviously, if the specific betting sequence shows you to be ahead, then there's no problem with calling however large a bet or pushing.

At least with some of the more game-theoretical stuff I've been doing lately, really on almost every street it presuppposes that you can put your opponent on some range. So, again, if you're not fairly good at interpreting that range, then you're not going to get very far. But I think understanding that stuff gives you a definite edge over some quite good players (most of whom don't understand that kind of thing) as well as increasing your edge over bad ones.

In all honesty, though, I think it's really about having fun while at the same time playing a winning strategy. It's fun for me figuring out these precise betting, raising, re-raising ranges in various situations, and it's obviously not fun for many others. And I should add that the game-theory I've been doing doesn't presuppose anything more than algebra. You can also do most of them with calculus (maximization problem), but it's usually more complicated and unnecessary. It's really not higher math that's involved here--just takes a little getting used to to learn to set up the equations. But that's a completely different subject.

Anyhow, I think understanding the math can increase whatever edge you have, but you can clearly get a very long way without an excessive amount of it. I doubt that Doyle Brunson has delved very deeply into game theory (although I could be wrong there), but I know Chris Ferguson has and would expect that players like Negreanu or Barry Greenstein have as well.

Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:44 pm


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2008-04-09T12:20:27-06:00 2008-04-09T12:20:27-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317244#p317244 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by iceman5 — Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:20 pm


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2008-04-09T11:53:58-06:00 2008-04-09T11:53:58-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317243#p317243 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by MVPSPORTS — Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:53 am


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2008-04-09T11:48:35-06:00 2008-04-09T11:48:35-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317241#p317241 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by iceman5 — Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:48 am


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2008-04-09T11:08:27-06:00 2008-04-09T11:08:27-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317236#p317236 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by TableTiger1 — Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:08 am


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2008-04-09T05:33:41-06:00 2008-04-09T05:33:41-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317193#p317193 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by gsdavid — Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:33 am


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2008-04-09T00:38:30-06:00 2008-04-09T00:38:30-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317173#p317173 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by Danhdan — Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:38 am


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2008-04-08T21:13:30-06:00 2008-04-08T21:13:30-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317134#p317134 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by Notorious_JC — Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:13 pm


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2008-04-08T21:06:27-06:00 2008-04-08T21:06:27-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317130#p317130 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by Twelver — Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:06 pm


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2008-04-08T20:59:00-06:00 2008-04-08T20:59:00-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317126#p317126 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]>
Player A says "thats a big pot and I have a flush draw. I seem to have odds, so I call"

Player B says "I'm getting 3:1 on a 4:1 draw, but I have implied odds so I call"

Players C says "I'm getting 3:1 on my 4:1 draw, but his range isnt weighted strongly enough to strong hands, so i fold"

Player D says "I cant call based on odds, and I dont think he has a strong enough hand to pay me if i get there, but that means he really cant call a shove most of the time. I shove"

Player E says "His calling range is only 10% of his current range and I have 25% equity against it. A shove is profitable"

Player F says "He knows that this is a scary board I can bluff, so him having bet means I need to adjust his range to maybe 30% strong hands that will call. A shove is not profitable"

Player G says "A shove is marginal, but i need to balance my ranges. Making a slightly -ev semibluff here 10% of the time makes me much harder to read"
and so on and so forth

My point I guess is that as you progress in levels of your thinking, you can make either a qualitative or a quantitative decision. While the quantitative method will almost always be more accurate, it is highly sensitive to what you plug into it. You can make big mistakes using math if your assessment of his ranges and your own perceived range are off. Ice seems to arguing that if you have good instincts and are usually accurate in what you put other guy on, you can get by with ballpark math, while the opposite isnt as true. From my limited NL play, I suspect he's right. fwiw i think the opposite is true of LHE.

Statistics: Posted by redhouse — Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:59 pm


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2008-04-08T20:36:55-06:00 2008-04-08T20:36:55-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317120#p317120 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by GodlikeRoy — Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:36 pm


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2008-04-08T20:16:42-06:00 2008-04-08T20:16:42-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317117#p317117 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by iceman5 — Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:16 pm


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2008-04-08T20:06:20-06:00 2008-04-08T20:06:20-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317115#p317115 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by GodlikeRoy — Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:06 pm


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2008-04-08T19:33:18-06:00 2008-04-08T19:33:18-06:00 http://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30696&p=317105#p317105 <![CDATA[Article: Playing by feel (and not by math)]]> Statistics: Posted by Notorious_JC — Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:33 pm


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