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Hmm... now that I think about it, the risk-reward betting would be more important in ring games than SNGs. In SNGs I have to push my hands before the blinds start eating away at the players. And you're right, I will still get the same callers, just make more profit off them. I'm going to try to adopt betting higher in these SNGs now.
Statistics: Posted by EscapePlan9 — Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:17 pm
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If you want to keep playing SNG tournaments and win up to your maximum potential, you need to play WAY tighter and somewhat more aggressive. Players at a low limit sit and go are so bad that you could make money by just playing the same way they do except folding your first 30 hands no matter what they are. In other words, there is almost no such thing as playing too tight early in a sit and go. Also, players will call huge overbets with hands like top pair medium kicker all day long in the low stakes SNGs that we're both talking about, so why let them get off easy?
Take it from someone who built his bankroll at the Party $10 SNGs with a 45% ITM and 50% ROI over a couple hundred trials. The tighter and more aggressive, the better for about 30 hands. After that, aggression is still good, but loosen up progressively. When you get down to 3, turn into a raving loose aggressive monster.
The only thing that never changes is that you always need to be hyper-aggressive.
Statistics: Posted by Nashvegas — Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:23 am
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Point taken on your first one Nash. I have to reconsider playing suited connectors below T in SNGs.
If you bet 80-100% of the pot every time, it will be nearly impossible for anyone to "read" you, if they were even trying (they're not).
When you bet 80-100% of the pot, you must win nearly HALF the time to break even. By betting closer to 50% of the pot you only need to win a THIRD of the time to break even. (Technically, you don't even need to win that much because sometimes when you are called, you still end up winning the hand.) That's what I was referring to by the risk-reward part.
I know this is called "livepokerforum" forums... but I think some people get too carried away with it. If there aren't any likely straight or flush draws, betting more than 60% of the pot is overdoing it. By betting 60% of the pot, they are being given about 3:1 drawing odds, which means calling it with an overcard draw (the most likely draw here - 7:1) would be a mistake. There's no need to bet 80% of the pot in this case, giving them roughly 2:1 drawing odds.
Nonetheless... I agree... when I have a strong hand and there ARE some likely draws out there, I need to bet closer to 80%.
Statistics: Posted by EscapePlan9 — Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:51 am
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I feel for ya with that streak. Sounds like you've had some bad luck. However, there are a couple of things you could do to play better, and maybe they would help you exit your streak.
(1) The ONLY time you should play a T9 or lower suited connector or one-gapper in a SNG is when there are 5 or fewer players and it's just an excuse for you to steal the blinds. NEVER play that kind of hand hoping to hit a flush or a straight. Never play ANY kind of hand in a SNG if you think the main strength of the hand is its potential for a flush or a straight.
(2) If you bet 80-100% of the pot every time, it will be nearly impossible for anyone to "read" you, if they were even trying (they're not).
(3) It's alot better to bet all in than to call all in. I have to have a pretty strong hand (or a good read on an opponent) to call an all in in a SNG before it's heads up or down to 3.
Statistics: Posted by Nashvegas — Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:38 am
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I rarely ever chase against the odds. For instance, if I have a straight flush draw - 15 outs - and there's a 2/3 pot-bet in front of me laying me roughly 2.5:1 odds, I'm making the right call here. If I make that call 100 times, I will profit from it. But I see what you're saying about not drawing to the nut flush. Also, I'd prefer to have folding equity when I have that many outs. When I'm short-stacked and I have that many outs, that's a good time as any to push all-in. To me it seems overly weak-tight to fold when you have that many outs and the correct odds.
Then again... you do have a point... it's not a cash game. If I miss the draw, I'm out. Tough call... I'll have to keep it in mind for future play.
About betting the pot... I generally don't bet that much. Mostly because of the risk-reward but also because it makes varying my bet amounts more costly. I like to keep the bets somewhere around 40%-80% of the pot so I'm difficult to read. I continuation bet the same way that I bet for value. Perhaps I should try mixing in some pot-bets, although really... I don't see someone folding to a pot-bet when they wouldn't fold to a 2/3 bet.
Statistics: Posted by EscapePlan9 — Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:54 am
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I would like to comment on your situations. I am by no means good at SnGs but I play at that same level on UB and have a little experience in those games.
#1. Don't let that one worry you too much. When you get your money in as a 70/30 favorite you are playing good poker. Unfortunately that also means you lose 30% of the hands. That is going to happen. I might suggest you bet the pot on the flop. You maximize your folding equity and build pots when you are ahead.
#2. Do Not Chase. In your scenario you figured you had 17 outs. That means you hit about 36% of the time. That also means that you lose 64% of the time. And that is a best case scenario. You actually win less because you will have times when you are running into a higher flush draw or worse and are drawing dead. Fold that 79s on the flop. This isn't a ring game where you can rebuy. You are out.
#3. I like both of your examples. Min raise to QQ and I'm short stacked - I'm pushing it all-in also. AKs play is fine also, as far as I'm concerned.
Just remember that you get to be on the other side of those play sometimes. Two weeks ago I'm playing in my weekly MTT and down to 9BB. I try an all-in blind steal with A9s from 2 off button. Get called by button, SB, and BB. All three have pocket pairs. The board came low, I caught the wheel straight and quadrupled up. I ended up finishing second in the trny. Those hands will make up for the tough ones.
Hope some of this is helpful.
Good luck on the tables and say hello when you see me.
Statistics: Posted by Sunbob — Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:19 am
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I KNOW that SNGs are pretty streaky for me... I'll place in like 5 in a row, and then lose the next 3, then win a couple... and so on and so on... Its just sort of the nature of the beast... I've got a million stories of people calling allins on a double paired board, where their 3rd pair is counterfeited, only to pop the boat on the river... TONS of 1,2, and 3 outters have cost me many a mouse... Best thing to do is just mumble something obscene under your breath about the guys mom, take a couple minute break, and come back firing at another table...
One suggestion if your losing streak is getting LONG... I'm not sure where you play (I'll assume Party, cause most people play there), but try moving to a different site for a while... Different sites have different blind structures, some are timed... others are hand based... And, just the new look may help out... Example... I do pretty decent at Stars and UB, suck donkey balls at Party... but for whatever reason, I'm ITM like 75% on Bodog, which has basically the same blind structure as Party... I have NO idea why... just the way it is...
Hope any of that blathering helped...
Statistics: Posted by MVPSPORTS — Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:46 am
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I don't play a huge volume of SNGs but last year I hit a spot where I lost 10 straight, 18 out of 20, and 31 out of 37. That was a very sad sad two weeks.
At the time I was thinking maybe I don't know what the f**k I'm doing in this game, but I got through it and continue to have success. Other people will tell you the same thing...VARIANCE. It sucks, but it's a fact of poker.Statistics: Posted by Big_Leon — Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:40 am
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I know every pro poker player says there will come a time when you will lose time and time and time again. It even happens to the pros. They will have a major losing streak for a week. Nonetheless, it is extremely frustrating.
The majority of the times I lost were in these 3 situations
(1) I was put all-in on the flop or the turn with a strong hand
(2) I was pot-committed and went all-in on a strong draw (big pot, big blinds, short stack)
(3) I had 5x BB or less, went all-in and lost
In the first situation... say I have trips on the flop but there's a potential flush draw. I raise somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot and get raised all-in. I delightfully call and learn I'm against a flush draw. Of course the flush hits. Another example... I have TT, it's shorthanded, I raise 3x BB from LP. I get a call from a medium stack in the BB. The flop comes 6-high. I once again raise between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot and am promptly raised all-in. I figure I'm probably against overcards. I call and he turns over AJ. The river brings up a J. This loss makes me short-stacked and practically all-in every hand, which results in the 2nd and 3rd situations.
The second situation... down to the last four players... the button limps in, SB completes, I have 79s and check. I pair my 7 and have two of my suit on the board. The button raises 2/3 pot, SB calls, I call. I currently have 14 outs (two 7s, three 9s, and the nine flush cards). The next card gives me a gutshot straight draw. I now have a ridiculous amount of outs (14 from before, plus the 3 from the gutshot - not double counting - 17 outs) and am practically pot-committed. With roughly 2:1 odds of hitting my hand, I'm willing to go all-in here. The button pushes all-in, SB folds, and I make the call. The button had trips on the flop, so I had slightly less outs. Nonetheless, the board doesn't pair on the river. But I also miss all 17 of my outs. And I'm busted out of the tourney.
The third situation... I have about 6x the BB late in the tourney with 5 players remaining. Early position player makes 2x BB raise. I have QQ and raise all-in. Early position player calls with his A9o and the ace comes on the flop. Another example... I have AKs on the button and we're down to 6 players. I have about the average stack. I raise 3x the BB and am minimum re-raised by a maniac (extremely loose and aggressive). I have an ace and a king, so it's far less likely I'm against aces or kings. And plus, he's a maniac. I cannot give him credit for a hand here. I put in a healthy re-raise about 4x his and he raises all-in. He's the big stack at the table and I had pot odds of 3:1 to call this all-in. Of course I make it with AK. He turns over JTo. The flop comes AKT. You see where this is going? Q on the turn. And blank on the river. He laughs and I leave without saying a word. I was completely disgusted!
My record losing streak is 8 tourneys in a row OTM. I'd say the last 3 tourneys I wasn't playing in the best mind-set either. Still, I was all-in in the same situations and lost. I know I put my money in when I had the best of it and that's what should count. I keep trying to remind myself that.
However, I did win the last $5 tourney I played. So there's still hope!
Statistics: Posted by EscapePlan9 — Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:21 am
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