We had the same discussion in the stop n go thread.

Derek, I've never played with you, but you seem to have a real knowledge of the game. Unfortunately, Sklansky (specifically SSHE and ToP) don't always apply to all games, especially those where intangibles like reads exist.

I can understand why you want to jam the pot with top set. However, you will win more money with a slowplay even in the long run than you will lose when the opponent hits their gin card(s). I've been on both ends of the deal, and my argument can go both ways, in that a player is more likely to "peel one off" for a SB than a BB. I just think that poker is a game of knowledge, from the books, and of feel, from your own reads and experience. In my hand, my experience told me that I had pretty much everybody drawing thin. In this hand, Piers' experience told him that he had people even worse off.

In my hand, I get paid off 4 times and lose once. I'll take that, especially since I'm smart enough to sniff out a made flush, and can get away from a hand, even a monster like trip Ks. I can make the laydown, and I won't make a call on the river, even when the pot is huge, even when I'm getting 14-to-1, when I just KNOW I'm beaten. Sklansky can do that--it's not for me.

I contest that the true hallmark of a great poker player is the ability to know when to lay down their monster hand. Odds be damned...

Reads are just another calculation you factor in when making a decision. In some big pots, you only need to be right 5% of the time to make the call profitable. Time and time again I am amazed and utterly baffled by the betting sequences of other players. There's always a 5% chance my hand is still good.

Folding a set of kings in a big pot to one extra BB is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard against these players. You can say all you want about how perfect your reads are and that your fold makes you a great player and whatever. I would never advise anyone to make that fold against these players, ever. You'll see two-pair, lower set, and bluffs at least 10% of the time to make the call profitable.

You do not have some ESP ability allowing such precision on other's hands and what they're drawing to. Against loose players they could be calling with bottom-pair, middle-pair, no-pair, gutshot draw, backdoor draws.. etc.

You can't go much wrong with believing your opponents are terrible players until shown otherwise.

Yeah Escape, we may disagree with the slowplay but I stand behind the fact I will almost never fold a set for 1BB into a pot of 8, much less 14. That's insane, again like I said earlier he'd have to physically show me his hand in order for me to that.

Likely scenario Fred if I raise the flop and SB has AA or KK, he three bets and MP is gone the VAST majority of the time (this time certainly not because he held a set). I just call his three bet on the flop. He leads the turn, MP is gone from the 3 bet most of the time, I raise him and he may or may not 3 bet here, if he does I cap. After that I don't think he will do more than Check call the river and say even if he bets I raise he calls in best case scenario.

best case scenarion I get him for 6 big bets + the one big bet extra on the flop (7 BB)
most likely scenario I get him for 1 extra on flop, 3 more on turn and river. (4 BB, outside shot at 5)

As it was I extracted 8 Big Bets with the potential for more if SB hits his A or K on the river. His call instead of a reraise on the turn gave me a fairly good idea he didn't hold AA so I am not too worried if an A falls on river.

If he would have been the middle position player leading on the flop I would have likely went ahead and raised it up then because most of the time he is going to lead the turn if I just call and then I raise for 2 BB the EP guy would likely be gone but since he was the first guy betting I got the opportunity to trap them both for at least 1 and possibly both for 2 Big Bets on the turn. By letting the flop go at one bet I got to keep both players in for further bets when I have a huge hand giving me even more opportunity to extract from 2 players instead of 1 in the Big bet rounds. On this type of board with my hand and the preflop action pretty much defining the other hands to NOT SLOWPLAY the flop in this position is a travesty because playing it fast on the flop is in the vast majority of cases going to limit my action by both knocking out a player and making the other at least very cautious which would limit my gains as well. Keeping both players in the pot for the turn with the first guy leading the action is not even a close call. A scarier board or more players in the pot of course I am going to try and get the maximum on the flop but not here.

I guess my thinking is all phucked up but when I flop top set on a rag board against 2 players and I have position and the first guy to act is betting into me I am damn well not going to go ape shit on the flop and try to kill my action on the big bet streets. If I am wrong then I will just have to live with the consequences