I'm really not sure about this hand - and it stems from a questionable raise to begin with - that is perhaps the problem...

This is a hand from a $3/$6 table on Games Grid. The table has been fairly aggressive (like most of Games Grid), so a preflop raise will usually either be reraised or folded around. I hadn't played a hand in a few rounds and my stack was right around $90.

In the past, if I came in for a raise, the player on my left has reraised 3 out of 4 times. He has proven to be quite aggressive, but not very solid.

I'm in MP and open raise with KJs. The player on my left reraises and it folds back to me.

Here, I think is a no-brain call. While I may be behind significantly to aces, kings, queens, jacks AK, AJ, KQ - I do have outs. For only one bet - just like Tightie says - it would be weak to fold here, getting 6.5:1 to call.

So I call and the flop is Ts9d2d (I have diamonds for a suit), so I have the 2nd nut flush draw and a gutshot. I don't expect him to have a ten in his hand, so I'd count the Td as an out here - but I'm really leary about hitting one of my overcards. In light of this, I'd treat my overcards (6 possible) as a single out, because I'd need to hit both in order to feel at all comfortable. Anyways, with 9 flush outs, 3 non-diamond queens and one more from my "overcard outs", I feel I'm in pretty good shape.

I know if I bet that he will raise, so I simply check to give him the control at the moment. I am planning at this point to bet out on any semi-scary turn, including the board pairing, a third straight card hitting or my flush hitting. He bets and I call.

The turn is a deuce to pair the board and I bet out, as planned. He thinks for a little bit and raises me. At this point, I'm very certain he has a pair already - and since tens are not likely (AT is the only one I could put him on other than the made set on the flop, though I suppose TT is a possibility as well), I feel I can hit my flush or straight and be good. I call.

The river is a beautiful 4d and I bet again. He simply calls and I take the pot.

At the time, I felt my play throughout the hand was pretty bad (hence the reason I ended my session with it). However, after the call preflop, I'm not sure that I think it is all that bad.

Worst case scenario is him with AA with the ace of diamonds. Here, on the flop, I'm still not too bad off (42:57) - and with only one bet to me, it would be a clear call.

On the turn, even if I was expecting to get raised on my bet 90% of the time and 10% of the time he would fold, I'm only behind to him 3:1. On that round I put in 2 bets into a pot that will be 6.75BB including his two bets. With a little bit of fold equity - I think the bet out is very reasonable.

So what does everyone think? Am I just trying to justify a bad call? Was my preflop raise so bad that I shouldn't even be talking?

/d

Star...I'm often a bit too aggressive for my own good to begin with, so take the following for what it's worth.

At some tables, I think an MP open-raise with KJs is a fine play. Toward the LAG end of the spectrum, I suppose, but not overly so. The problem here is that, as you said, the player on your left seems to be obsessed with 3-betting your raises. This means it's possible that he's even doing so with a worse hand than you, but in general he's probably got you beat, and he's got position. So an open-raise here seems to be asking for trouble. (Nevertheless, I'd still do it because, heck, I really like raising )

On the flop, I think there's absolutely no question you're taking it to the river...and, I think your draw is strong enough to be played aggressively; even if you miss your draw, you may get him to back down and fold some AK-AJ sorta hand.

Of course, there's plenty of ways to play aggressively. Personally, I think I would've check-raised the flop and leading out the turn. If he 3-bets my checkraise, I'm willing to believe he's got a big pair and just call down and hope to hit my flush/gutshot. I think the problem with your line (calling flop, leading out on a scare-card) is that it doesn't look too convincing. Any time someone pulls that move on me (i.e. cehck-call, and lead when the bottom card pairs), it makes me about 95% certain that whatever their hand might be, it's not what they're representing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though you got a big draw, you'd much rather see him just lay down something like AK or AQ without having to hit any of your outs. Leading out on the turn after check-calling the flop is one of those confusing plays that often triggers your opponent's "calling reflex" (A Mike Caro term, by the way)...the bottom card pairs and you bet, but he knows you probably don't have trips with any hand you'd raise...so he'll think you're trying to bluff him off and call you down with his AK. I'm not saying that's what he had this hand, but I just think your fold equity is a lot higher if you throw out a check-raise on either the flop or turn, as opposed to the stop-n-go thingy.

Just my thoughts, anyhow.

-TW

Your raise preflop is not so bad, IF I play that hand I would raise it first in as well.

I don't like your play most of the way through the hand and alot of it hinges on what TW already said.

I'll tell you what I see if I am the three better. Well pretty nice flop for my hand as no paint appears and I know that Star very likely has paint here or perhaps an outside chance of a big pair here but less likely because he didn't 4 bet me preflop so my AK or AA or KK or whatever here is probably good. A check to me I bet, he only calls so very likely he doesn't have any of that or he would have CR me here to find out where he was or try to take command. Nice turn card as now I don't have to worry about my big pair getting counterfeited, WOAH what is this Star leads into me when the 2 pairs, get out of town that didn't hit him and I can't see him raising preflop with something like A10 and even if he did he would have bet or CR me on the flop I believe and if he holds a monster he would have went for the CR here instead of leading into me, well I have something for him, BAM I raise with my big pair or perhaps even AK is very likely good here or has some folding equity if he has nothing. What in the world is he trying to pull? River, damn a phucking diamond and there old star is leading into me again I guess I just call, sure am glad he didn't go for the CR because I would have damn sure bet my overpair given the way he played the hand and he would have taken me for 2 Big Bets.

Bottom line is if you are going to run some semi bluff or bluff it has to make some sense to be believed if you are playing against an aware person at all and if you are just playing monkeys forget trying it and just do the straight forward thing. If I am you I would have probably led at the flop and see what kind of reaction I got. If he doesn't raise you then he has got big overcards and you can lead again at the turn, if he raises you on the flop you check call the turn if you don't improve fold the river.

I think at the time of the hand I went the line I went to make it look like a set - but if that was the case, I guess I probably would've check-raised the turn - I don't know.

I'm still back and forth on it - and I think you both are right that I very likely have little fold equity here from even AK - so the line I took should've been scrapped.

The best part of the hand was his explosion afterwards. I had already decided it was time to leave because I didn't feel I played the hand well - but he starts whining into the chat - so I mentioned a few things about not berating the fish and then LEFT. Then he got a few complaints from the rest of the table.

Of course, this is one of the things that has started to bother me about hold'em. In Omaha and in Stud I have consistently done well. For hold'em - I am always jumping up and down and all over the place. Right now, I'm netting a significant loss at $2/$4 (to the tune of $775 over almost 6k hands). For hands like this (which was $3/$6) to really work - I need to make sure I'm playing optimally elsewhere. Since that doesn't really seem to be the case - maybe just folding this in the first place would've been the best play for the future of my play - if that makes any sense.

In the end, at GamesGrid, I'm sure there are more than a few people who are convinced I have no place as a winning player - because I have shown some absolutely disgusting suck outs... but at the same time - for hands like this (where after preflop I wasn't too bad off), maybe I'm getting the reputation as a suck-out artist unfairly... I don't know - at this point I'm talking myself around a circle.

Well, Mecos there's two sides to that coin. I don't mind being called a fish or being perceived as a fish - as long as I'm not a fish. That is the real question I am facing these days regarding my hold'em play. I've been questioning my plays lately (which is a good thing - because I am trying to identify my problems and get them fixed), and some of them have been so far out there - I have to wonder.

And I didn't look at the hand history (GamesGrid just implemented them - I haven't checked them out though), but I'll see if I can take a look tonight.

/d