Just started to play SnGs after finding this site and reading some of the stuff thats on it. I play at Expekt.com (Prima network) at the $2 and $5 tables. Everything went fine at first. The first 20 tournaments I played I finished in the money half the time. Then things turned around. The next 20 I only made it into the money 4 times. I don't think I play diffrently now than in the beginning. Was I lucky in the beginning or am I unlucky now? Who knows? I know one thing though and that is that I haven't won many races lately. It is so frustarating when your AK gets beaten by someone with QT on the river and you end up fourth... Anyhow the SnGs I play are structured as follows. You start with 1000 chips and the blinds are 10/20. The blinds doubles after 10 hands and continue to double in this fashion until they are 640/1280. I'm not sure that I like the structure much. I would rather see that they double after 10 or 15 minutes or so but then i would have to move to another site. The problem is that the blinds catch up to you very fast. If you don't get some good hands early you find yourself in trouble quickly. My question is how quickly. I think that when your stack ratio (your stack/(big blind + small blind) ) drops to 4 or 5 you should start looking for a good enough hand and then move all-in. Since you cant make a reasonable bet after the flop when your stack ratio is less than that I see no reason to keep any chips. Hopefully everyone will fold and if your called your should be in decent shape to win the pot. So what is a decent hand? Any pair and any hand with an ace. I would also move all-in with any hand with two face cards if I'm starting to be desperate. Sometimes any king will do. Sometimes even worse than that... How do people feel about this reasoning? Is it flawed? If there is a player with a smaller stack than me and we're playing four handed then I will be a little more conservative and hope that he drops out before me. How do you feel? When and with what do you go all-in when short-stacked?

Hi Chip,

I would hardly ever limp when shortstacked or shorthanded. I limp early in the tournament i.o to get a monster with my low pair or connectors.
I have won tournaments with 45 points left. I would still advice not to be too eager in finding an all in hand.
When shortstacked, and there are many differences in being shortstacked ( opponents, places to the money, blinds etc..), I would Limp with group 1 hands in order to trap.
Remember that any hand has a 1:3 chance of winning the pot.

So the big blind would be getting the odds to call your all in hand many times.
If you still have 3 or 4 times the big blind left I would try to get the blinds ( all in ) with AJ or higher and pairs from 99. The rest is i.m.o not worth an all in.

I have made money many times just by sitting there. Let other people do the knocking.

It's just my 2 cnts in general I think you are looking to hard to double up.

It has suprised me that not others have replied yet.
Maybe they have different opinions.

cheers,

Tommyhawk

Keep on learning:)

I actually disagree with you here Tommy. With 5x the big blind you need to get your money in -- you need to take advantage of folding equity while you still have it. When you're that low, winning another round of blinds is extremely important. When you get down to 2 or 3 big blinds you won't have the luxury of picking even a decent hand and you'll almost certainly get called by the big blind.

Ideally you'd make your steal attempt from late position, be the first person in, and be up against a stack in the big blind that's small enough to do damage to. The closer you get to that ideal, the looser you can be in your hand selection.

On the button, first in, against a stack I can do damage to, I'd go in with most aces, any pair, two cards higher than 9, and suited connectors down to 65.

If someone limped in, you need to tighten up considerably. I'd pick AT or better, pairs 88 or better, KQ, maybe QJs.

If you are in earlier position you should tighten up as well, but not as much as if someone's limped in.

Well nice to see you disagree so we can talk about it.

I am still not moving in with any face cards when I am at 5x big blinds and close to the money.

So lets say I have $500 left and the BB is $100. If they fold I have $150 more and if I am called I am out most the times.
A marginal hand ( and that is what we are talking about ) is not something I would bet my stng result on.
I totally agree that you gotta make a move soon. But I got I still got some time for others to bust and get me money.

It is the way I play and made me good money.

Agreed, Norton- you have summarised what I was thinking but could not find the words to express so succinctly!

One simply cannot wait for the big hands you would usually need to push with, as there is not the time.

In my experience, if I move all in at the later stages of SnGs 4 or 5 handed, the medium stacks are going to need something pretty decent to call. And even if I move in with J7s and get called, say, I am probably only going to be about a 35% dog or so. The folding equity here will be significantly damaged if I go through another blind circuit without getting one of the big hands Tommy suggests you need.

I think better to push when you have got 5 BBs with something marginal than waiting for a premium hand that, lets face it, is pretty unlikely to come. The other players, remember, will also have an eye on the bubble. This can be exploted particularly if, as is assumed all along here, you have been tight and solid at the start. Many times I go from being called a rock for the first 3 levels to a maniac at the later stages. This can only be a good thing, IMO.

As a beginner i've tried several different things at this stage and have had to learn fast. Lessons of a newbie:

Tactic 1 - wait for the big hand. I've been so tight that I'm down to 300 chips with 100/200 blinds. AK arrives and I push from any position and find 4 of us in the pot. Oh dear..... I'd have been far better of with 2 of us in the pot, with me holding J8o.

Tactic 2 - Throw them all in when a mult-way pot arrives, because I can quadruple up, right? Even my rudimentary learnings about the maths of this game tell me that's an idiot's move. I did it in my first few games though.

Tactic 3 - OK, I've played tight but have caught nothing and have 600 chips when the blinds are 50/100. I'm on the button and it folds to me. I call with the intention of seeing the flop then going in big post flop whatever my hand. Hey, that guy just reraised from the BB. I call I'm still going to have him. Hey, that idiot just bet on the flop, he was supposed to check. Suppose he must have a hand and I'll fold. Oh, I've only got 400 chips now. How did he know I was going to try and steal?

Tactic 4 - I've now learned to read people a bit and according to Poker Tracker there's a rock over the other side of the table. I'm in EP but I'll try and steal his blind. All in they go, whoops, that guy on the button has called my T5o with a pair of queens, isn't he scared by my tight table image?

Tactic 5 - Read this thread and get aggressive in late position with decent/half decent hands when there are no callers and I'm button or one off. Hey sometimes they fold, cool. Sometimes we go to showdown and I lose, sometimes I win and have enough to get semi-loose aggressive for the latter stages.

On average, if i play tight at the first 3 levels I catch one good hand and good flop in about 40% of the games. In those situations I will usually get to 1000-1200 chips by the time we reach 100/50, and we're down to 6/7 players. OK, I'm happy with that and can play for the money. In the other 50% I have to take a risk as in tactic 5 and may end up all in with a 40:60 shot at getting above 1000 chips.

So, by my maths that means in 64% of my games I get to 6/7 players with a mid size stack at the 50/100 or 100/200 stage. I then convert that to 41% in the money at my current rate (on $5 SnGs at Party).

Hope my ramblings are a little entertaining and add something to the thread.

The Don

OT, but your ROI is going to jump considerably if you get off those $5 games at PP. No reason you should be paying a 20% entry fee. If you need to stay at the $5 level because of bankroll or comfort dictates, then move to another site that has a 10% entry (Poker Stars and Ultimate Bet work with Poker Tracker, if that's a consideration).