Conceptually, I have a hard time playing a draw from the blinds. I feel as though I'm playing the majority of these hands the same way and when I'm hitting, I'm not maximizing the amount I could win from them. I don't really have a problem playing a very strong draw, the problem really lies more in the medium strength draws. An example would be, assume an unraised pot and 5 way action,you find yourself in the BB with something like and the flop is . You've got the 3rd nut flush draw, runner-runner straight, and one overcard which may or may not be good. At the low limits I play, 1-2 or 2-4 on party, it's entirely probable that somebody caught a peice of that board. How do you play it?

In general, I would check call that flop and do the same on the turn, and check fold the river if I didn't improve, but that seems weak to me, not to mention it's painfully obvious what I have and when I hit I won' t make any more than one or two bets. I guess the alternative is to lead at the flop and the turn, but if you don' t improve you've got to give up and check the river at which point someone bets and you're forced to fold. Or I suppose you could bet the river on a stone bluff and you're surely beaten if you're called. This also seems like a losing option, since you're not really making any more or losing any more than you would from just check calling. The lone positive benefit of betting are the times you pick up the pot uncontested or improve by hitting your overcard to win with top pair. I guess that's a benefit that shouldn't be discounted. The third option would be checking with the intention of raising a bet. Here you're getting extra bets in the pot before improving, and if you don't improve you've only cost yourself one extra bet on the flop, unless someone three bets you, and now you've put in a lot more money on the flop than you would like to have. For this reason it would seem to me that this is the superior option, even with the risk of the occaisional three bet. Thoughts?

Having talked myself into the notion, here's a hand I played last night in this fashion that I found amusing. Playing a very loose passive 1/2 table on Party and I had in the BB. 4 limpers and the SB called to see a flop of . The SB checked and I checked with the intention of calling a bet. The first limper checked, the second limper bet and everyone in between called. There were $10 in the pot so I clearly had the right odds to call the bet and draw to my flush, but I decided to raise, figuring I would lose the first limper who had checked, but everyone else with money in the pot would call the bet. Thus I'd be getting 4 extra bets in the pot by investing one. Positive EV play correct? So I bet but only two of the remaining players called. Which I found amusing since they were getting like 12-1 on a call. Anyway, the turn was the . Not exactly what I was looking for, but I figured it just gave me 5 more outs, since trips or Kings up was a likely winner. I bet again and both players folded. If only it were always that easy.

One final note, I think this play loses something the less players who come in pre flop and the later in position the flop bettor is. For example, if it checked to the button who bet, my check raise is likely to chase out the remaining players and I'd be forced to play a flush draw and one over card, out of position, heads up, which I don't think is what I'm looking for. Additionally if fewer players enter the pot, my check raise is getting more money in the pot, but the % of my own money in is higher and thus it's sort of like I'm charging myself to see the turn and river.

Is my thinking here correct or do you guys have any suggestions on how I could better play these hands? Thanks in advance!

Drade

BTW, Iceman, really nicely done with the site. I came from UPF also and I like the layout much better and the content of the posts is fantastic. Kudos!



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I think you've got it about right now.
What I also keep in mind is, what image have I made at the table so far? And do I want to continue that image?
I'll usually try to mix it up the best I can. Never play your draws the same way. That way when you do come out raising, it gives them a chance to play it wrong. i.e-fold.

You said "The lone positive benefit of betting are the times you pick up the pot uncontested or improve by hitting your overcard to win with top pair"
The other GREAT positive benefit is when you hit your draw!
The other positive is that you could check the turn, everyone else checks, and you have just bought yourself a free look at the river with just a small bet.

Gotta love those flush draws. Just make sure you have the correct pot or implied odds to chase, otherwise chunk em like last weeks green fuzzy thanksgiving stuffing!

I really favor the check and then checkraise in these types of situations when you can trap alot of folks for two bets because you are +EV in these situations to build the pot. This works even better for open end straight draws or double belly busters although you have one less out but when you hit you can many times go for another checkraise because it is less apparent what you have. I have won some of my biggest pots from hands such as these with being able to check raise the field twice when there was several folks involved. Another good time to do this is when you flop a set such as with 55 on a board of Q95. If you can get most of the field for two bets after your check go ahead and do so on the flop and then when a beautiful A hits the turn you can almost always get them for another checkraise.

The scenario changes if say only you a late position and the SB see the flop. If you have that Q8 hearts now and the flop is 972 with two hearts go ahead and lead at it and if the late position calls I wouldn't be too worried and would probably fire another bet on the turn barring an ace as many players will take one off with overcards but will give it up on the turn.

The position of the first better is the key factor in how you play those draws. If it is the button it is better to just call and hope for some more company but if he is close to your left and a couple of others have called when it gets back to you go ahead and pump it up as you are in a positive position with the pot odds. Good luck.