[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4783: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3888)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4785: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3888)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4786: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3888)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4787: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3888)
+EV edge you just might have overlooked - Live Poker Forums

Advanced search

+EV edge you just might have overlooked

All topics related to the mini tournaments

Moderators: Cactus Jack, LPF Police Department

+EV edge you just might have overlooked

Postby thewheel » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:28 pm

i don't know if anyone else has ever thought about this, but i certianly have. if this has been posted before, please give a firm (yet kind) kick to the rear...


so anyways, i decided to expand my repertoire of games online and decided to start playing some heads-up matches. i particularly like them for when i don't have the time to sit down and devote myself to a full session of ring play (four-tabling to usually around 500 hands, taking about 2 hours). i then one time decided that i was going to try one of the multi-table "shootout" style heads-up matches, specifically the four-perosn, two-level ones. i fell in love! read on to discover why.

the simple reason is the +EV edge that this tournament style gives over its non-shootout counterparts. how is that you ask? well, to start with is has to do with the fees involved in entering these events.

i assume that you can play two heads-up contests back to back. that is one regular HU contest followed by another regular HU contest, or a single two-tier "shootout" HU match. if you cannot, then quit reading :P also, i assume you know what win rate means, and know what your win rate is in this type of contest. i'm going to use the numbers from the PokerStars tournaments, because that's what i'm familiar with, but any site that has a constant 5% fee structure will have similar results.


WinRate% = WR = the win rate of the concerned player

BuyIn = 100%
Fees = 5%
Expenses = E = -1 * (BuyIn + Fees) = -105%

PrizePoolNormal = 200%
PotentialProfitNormal = PPN = PrizePoolNormal + Expenses = 95%
PrizePoolShootOut = 400%
PotentialProfitShootOut = PPSO = PrizePoolShootout + Expenses = 295%


so first we start with the EV of a normal HU tournament:
EVNHU = WR * PPN + (1 - WR) * E
= WR * (PPN - E) + E
= WR * 200% - 105%
= 2 * WR - 105%
we learn from this that break-even (EV=0) is a win rate at 52.5%. anything better is gravy


next is the EV of a two-tier shootout HU tournament:
well, there's three distinct cases here...
1). you loose in the first tier :(
2). you win in the first tier, but lose in the second tier.
3). you win in the first tier, and win in the second tier.
note the conditional probability that exists here. to win in the second tier you must have won in the first tier.

so the EV is:
EVSO = (1 - WR) * E + WR * (1 - WR) * E + WR * WR * PPSO
= E - E * WR + E * WR - WR * WR * E + WR * WR * PPSO
= E - WR * WR * E + WR * WR * PPSO
= -105% + 105% * WR * WR + 295% * WR * WR
= 4 * WR * WR - 105%
which means to break even, (EV=0) you must win just shy of 51.25% of your matches.


you're basically paying the same expenses to play two matches most of the time (proportional to your win rate of course), versus the same expenses every time (if you just played normal HU matches). does anyone else think this is a great idea? if you don't believe me, set the two EV equations equal and solve for WinRate%. you'll discover that in order to have better EV playing in shootout style HU matches over normal HU matches, your win rate simply has to be better than 50%. that's quite a boon isn't it? now you might tell me that winning two normal contests back to back is difficult because the opponent you run into in the second tier is likely to be a tougher opponent than the one you faced in the first tier. you may be right, but considering how the second tier is structured (on PokerStars at least) the second tier is a carbon copy of the first with everything doubled (starting chips, blinds, etc.). so it's almost identical to registering in another separate HU match against a tougher opponent, except you don't have to pay the expenses again. you never know, that "tough opponent" just might be a lucky donk who you can easily put out of their misery ;). you'll also likely say that since a shootout match is two contests, you're taking twice the time to win twice the prize, therefore its a wash. if you really do think that, you need to go back and read this post more carefully.


the moral of the story folks: twice the time, twice the play, same expenses = +EV
Aw shit, here comes PacMan.
User avatar
thewheel
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:42 am

Postby Juskimo » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:33 pm

[23:42] Mekos King: and lookin bck on it all
[23:42] Mekos King: I FEEL RICH JEWISH GUILT

<spank_her_pair> whats everyone up 2?
<stickdude> watching Pok's AA get stomped on by Jus's AK
<PocketSevens> For those who missed it there's proof that when you eat a lot of fish you turn into one

http://juskimo.blogspot.com/
j[d]
User avatar
Juskimo
Rolled up since '05
 
Posts: 2188
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:28 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Postby thewheel » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:17 pm

Aw shit, here comes PacMan.
User avatar
thewheel
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:42 am

Postby GodlikeRoy » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:24 am

I'll just comment on the idea that playing 4-player HU matches has a higher EV than playing a 2-player HU match because of the lower fee and higher prizepool : money invested ratio. Juskimo already pointed out the pyschological factor of forcing yourself to play 2 matches in a row and having to win them, one other small thing I might throw in (which may make up a greater than 1.25% difference) is that when you win the first one, you will be playing the better of the two players in the other match (not always of course due to the high luck factor, but say 60% of the time) and therefore your edge against that opponent may be that you will only win 54% of the time as opposed to winning 57% against a random opponent. Just food for thought.
Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

User avatar
GodlikeRoy
 
Posts: 7430
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:43 am

Postby Cactus Jack » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:01 am

"Are the players better as the stakes go up? It's not an exam; it's a buyin." Barry Tanenbaum
User avatar
Cactus Jack
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:24 am
Location: Vegas, baby


Return to Sit and Go's (SnGs)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests