$20+$2 2-tabler at Poker Stars. Top 4 in the money.

Play has been very tight for awhile. Most of the time, a preflop raise bought the blinds. But a couple of times, boostnslide answered a preflop raise with an all-in reraise only to have the original raiser fold. We saw very, very few flops in a good while.

Then this hand happened. I'm UTG, boostnslide is UTG+1:

PokerStars Game #1533706003: Tournament #7061515, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2005/04/16 - 15:31:12 (ET)
Table '7061515 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 4: boostNslide (8132 in chips)
Seat 5: Markah (2759 in chips)
Seat 6: fibaliar (2570 in chips)
Seat 7: kingsfan2003 (2870 in chips)
Seat 9: flafishy (10669 in chips)
boostNslide: posts the ante 50
Markah: posts the ante 50
fibaliar: posts the ante 50
kingsfan2003: posts the ante 50
flafishy: posts the ante 50
fibaliar: posts small blind 300
kingsfan2003: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to flafishy [Qh Qd]
flafishy: raises 1400 to 2000
boostNslide: raises 6082 to 8082 and is all-in
Markah: folds
fibaliar: folds
kingsfan2003: folds

OK. What to do here? I'm in the lead by a decent margin over No. 2 boostnslide and by a lot over the rest of the field. As I said before, boostnslide had done this a couple of times and taken the pot without ever seeing a flop. I have him covered, so if I call the hand and lose I'm still alive -- but I would be in a scramble then just to get into the money. Obviously, if I call and win the hand, I'm skating to first-place money. So my point of making this post is to ask: Do I call or fold?

On with the result:

flafishy: calls 6082

After considering it for awhile, I decide that boostnslide does NOT have AA or KK. If he did, he wouldn't have gone all-in to push me off the pot. So I put him on something like AJ or AQ or possibly a lower pair.

Boostnslide shows Kh Ah


*** FLOP *** [9d 5d Ad]
*** TURN *** [9d 5d Ad]
boostNslide said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [9d 5d Ad Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
flafishy: shows [Qh Qd] (a flush, Ace high)
boostNslide: shows [Kh Ah] (a pair of Aces)
flafishy collected 17314 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 17314 | Rake 0
Board [9d 5d Ad Jd 2h]
Seat 4: boostNslide showed [Kh Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: Markah (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: fibaliar (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: kingsfan2003 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: flafishy showed [Qh Qd] and won (17314) with a flush, Ace high


After this, I had no trouble at all. Just went all-in on every hand and finished off the last three opponents in five or six quick hands.

I escaped with a miracle board, obviously. But what do you think? Was I correct in calling his all-in, given the big-picture situation?

flafishy... this is sorta similar to the post we had on another thread, wasn't it...? Going allin v. the other Big Stack on the bubble... I think you said there that you would fold AK w/ an A high flop... I understand that he was stealing, but I think, at the stack size you had, I would fold and wait till he steals and you know 99% you got him beat...

If you guys were already ITM, I would be much more likely to call... not sure if that reasoning makes sense...
MVP

Difference is that this is preflop. The other discussion was after we had seen a flop, which leaves many more possibilities that he has me beat -- a set, two pair -- or even a straight or flush draw.

But I see your point. Even though I was certain I was ahead when the money went into the pot, it still was basically a coinflip. That's why I'm not sure it was a smart call in this situation. Was the risk too great for the reward? Or do you have to put your foot down and not let him get away with it? Because he will try it again if you let him succeed this time, and next time you might not be in as good a position to fight it.

Not arguing with you or trying to defend myself, MVP -- but rather trying to bring all angles into the discussion.

And another question occurs to me: Was this guy an idiot for risking his almost-certain payout with this move?

The thing is w/ those kinds of players... his all-in push around works great everytime but once, and thats when he busts out... He's definitely dumb for attempting it against you, but that's the way he plays...
As for the play, I'm sure lots of guys would've called it, as you were probably on top at that point... hell I might have called... but I tend to be too much of a cheap bastard, and would've waited to get into the money... If we were already in the money, or if the all-in guy was one of the small stacks, I think it's a definite push...

Hope my random meandering thoughts help...
MVP

Boy oh boy.......This one is tough...I would love to see more input on this, but my first instinct is you have to go with the hand...It looks good, feels good etc. It is interesting that he had AK suited, which may have been stronger than you anticipated...I am faced with these decisions quite often, and I have to admit, if the "oppenent" has been trying to muscle me a bit, I will go for it right there...I think in the super long term scheme of things, it is probably as close to a coin flip as you can find...
Comments ??
B

Bobby.. that's exactly why I don't think I'd do it... Who wants to risk their tournament life and get knocked out on the bubble by challenging the other big stack... Like I said, if we were already ITM, it would be a lot easier to push...

If you lose, you aren't out of it since you will have about 2k left or so. This is definitely tough one but I would probably call knowing i can't be eliminated and it would give me 1st place if I won. As for the other player, I would think it would be a fold or all in for him. He knows you aren't gonna call unless you had at least QQ so likely you would fold and he would take the chips lead. I think it was a worst play for him than it was for you but I honestly can't say its a terrible move by either of you.

Kowboy... glad you agree w/ me (I think you agreed w/ me...)... Makes me feel smart to have a little backup (...flashback to Godfather 2 - Fredo: I'm Smaat, not stupid like everyone thinks...)...

Anyways, are you serious about your RCG comment...? If you think the A hits more likely, doesn't that throw the R out of the Card Generator...

MVP

TKowboy
I rarely disagree with you but the above post makes no sense (to me)...I am re reading and really having a hard time understanding...are you saying you play QQ live in this manner but not online?? We have reads as well here... Your first paragraph was confusing as well...That is ALL you play?? With no regard to the texture of the players/game etc ?? You made it soumd WAY to mechanical to me---correct me if I mis read...

I have played a zillion tourneys in the last few days, and many have a similar "feel", but some are just like the old days (loose and all in maniacs)....You have to adjust, I think...
B

Bobby... excuse me for speaking for Kowboy, but I think he meant early in the tourney...

TK, I'm not so sure I understand what you're saying, either. You would have played QQ but they should be folded? What are you saying?

Also, I'm not buying QQ is a better hand live than online. That doesn't make sense.

One thing I'm missing here is some kind of assessment of the RANGE of hands for this move. Even with open cards, I'm not sure that I agree with what seems to be the majority view: namely it's better to fold.

But if this guy has made the move frequently, as you say, then I'm going to have to assume that it wasn't just on AA, KK and AK. It may have been as wide a range as any ace, or even just a purely "situational" bluff at times, thinking that you had to fold it. Against a tight player there, I can see folding QQ, but against a player showing some serious signs of looseness, I think it's a pretty good spot to make a stand.

Also, taking the other big stack is almost a guarantee of winning the tourney at that stage, so it's at least worth considering whether calling is +EV even at 50%. I guess let's just say that folding locks up second place, while calling and winning locks up first place (at the risk of missing the money). Then, if you lose, you're the short-stack, but by no means guaranteed not to make the bubble (50% chance, maybe? there's at least not an enormous distance between you and the other short-stacks). I dunno, I guess with open cards it probably would be better to fold here, but against a loose raiser, I don't think I can lay down a hand like QQ pre-flop, even on the bubble.

First to answer Bobby. All in with AA, KK and AK is my standard. As I noted I do not play the same way everytime but most of the time I do. I want all my chips in the pot if someone wants to dance then lets do it. If not give me the blinds and I'm happy. Loose/aggressive and tight/passive players will be the reason for change. I don't like limping with AA or KK. I will with AK since it is a drawing hand and I can get away from it. But another drawing hand is not going to beat my AA or KK because I got cute and slow played them.

For Fishy. The correct play is to lay QQ down to an all in raise from the only other stack that can hurt you. Your QQ was no stronger then 22 if your up against AK. He caught his pair. You just happen to catch a board that had 4 cards to your flush. He will catch his A or his K more times then you will get 4 cards to the flush.

What I went on to say was even though the correct play was to lay down QQ. I would have more then likely called. I would have also had my stack crippled because I would not have hit 4 cards to my flush but he would have still caught his A or K.

Aisthesis, Why do you want to make a stand against the only stack that can hurt you? Let him fight the small stacks steal there blinds you already know he is loose and you can beat him heads up.

I am not a Conspiracy Theorist. I think as a whole online poker is fair. Some sites I do believe create action. No problem when I think this is happening I stop playing on those sites.

In a B&M game the cards are shuffled and once you are done shuffling they are dealt as they are. The RCG is constently shuffling. So without the deck froze I feel the A tends to hit the board more offend then it does in a froze shuffled deck. So QQ is stronger IMO in a B&M because Ax is not going to beat you as often as it is online. This can be debated and I have no facts or figures so I cannot stand behind my claim. I just know what works for me. I play 85% online and 15% B&M.

If your curious enough and have the patience play a few SNG's and count the number of hands that a A hits the board. See if the percentages adds up.