Alright, so here is a pretty classic example of why you don't bet small ... or ESPECIALLY min-bet when you have the best hand.

This is basically for anyone learning PLO.

> Dealing Hole Cards
> hampi33 folded
> pokerzen raised for $0.70
> Chiefmann folded
> Ringmuskeln folded
> DBERN called for $0.60
> ManneE called for $0.50
> Dealing the Flop
> DBERN bet for $0.52
> ManneE raised for $3.66
> pokerzen called for $3.66 --> I'm not about to push my stack here when there's a straight/flush draw on the board ... if the turn was harmless I'd push.
DBERN called for $3.14
> Dealing the turn --> I believe at this point that I am defeated, and will fold to any good-sized bet.
> DBERN bet for $0.20 --> This is NOT a good-sized bet. This is in fact the most retarded play possible. Here you pot it, or check-raise if you think oppo will bet.
> ManneE called for $0.20
> pokerzen called for $0.20 --> I have 9 outs to a nut full house, and 1 out for quads ... I didn't even consider that I could pull a straight out of this too ... but I had an additional 3 outs there. Edit: looking it over again ... I had another 3 on the K as well. Total = 15 outs to the nuts or near-nuts. (board pair could possibly give someone quads. Which happens. To me. All the time. I log it in my journal now. Anyway, obviously call.
> Dealing the river --> Yay, nut straight!
> DBERN, you have 10 seconds to respond
> DBERN bet for $3.42 --> Yay, an idiot! (Wrong time to make the big bet buddy)
> ManneE folded
> pokerzen raised for $6.84 --> Value bet, because I didn't believe he'd go for a repot
> DBERN called for $3.42
> pokerzen shows a Straight, Queen high

DBERN mucked
> pokerzen wins $27.06 with a Straight, Queen high

So yah, the point here basically is that I would have folded my hand to a pot bet on the turn. He obviously had a lower straight, and that would have been the correct play. Since he played incorrectly, he lost over 1/2 buyin on a hand he could have taken down.

Those are excellent points. At the time the hand was occuring ... I wasn't even looking at the str8 draws. Time to improve my board reading skills a bit. (In a slight defense ... I was 4-tabling at the time) I did a quick calculation of my odds of getting the boat vs. odds of losing to a straight or flush ... obv. as per your post I would have been incorrect to fold even to a pot bet.

Do you believe then that it would have been correct for me to pooosh on the flop? Now I'm thinking maybe. Stacks weren't very deep ... maybe just over 1 buyin each.

Also, yes in hindsight I could have gotten a bit more value on the river.

Yah ... I'm pretty good for the most part ... but sometimes things slip through like this ... doesn't happen when I'm only 3-tabling so I may restrict myself to that for now. Can be booooooring at times though. Lunacy at other times.

Well I could go either way but I think that 20c bet is hardly screaming strength and the other guy has middle or bottom set. If you raise I'd kind of hope the set guy comes along at this level, and I'm not convinced that the other guy has the straight here. Even if he does, with 15 outs you're going to be +EV (or at the very least about evens) 3-handed to get it all in (you need 12 clean outs once the hands are flipped over to be evens, which you probably will just about have).

So I'm either hoping to continue the hand 3-handed (in which case I'm not too concerned whether it's called round or raised) or put pressure on the $0.20 betting guy (who I don't think bets on the flop, calls a raise, and then puts out a puny mini-bet on the turn with a straight). But basically I think (given the betting) you'll still be ahead here often enough to make raising a good play, with the huge draw you have as backup. Without the straight draw, I'd be more concerned about getting raised but I still think on balance I'd probably risk it at this level.

If I had to put them on a hand (assuming they're not too bad) I guess I'd maybe say the 20c betting guy has a nut flush draw plus maybe some other crap, and the other fella has a set/two-pair, something like that. Of course there could be a 9J or something floating around but them's the breaks if so.

Since pokerzen had the ace of spades DBERN did not have the ace high flush draw. its like 50/50 he had 679 and made a 10 high straight on the river.

And yes people call big bets and raises even with the flushdraw and higher straight draw with a 679