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Big QJ Hand NL $1/2 - Live Poker Forums

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Big QJ Hand NL $1/2

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Big QJ Hand NL $1/2

Postby kennyg » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:09 pm

been playing fairly tight on a $1/2 on Royal Vegas. Max buy in is $200

opponent- ABC player
stacks: me- $400 opponent $200

UTG limps, folded to me I limp on the button with [Qc][Js]. Blinds call.

FLOP pot $8
[2h][7s][Qh]
checked to me on the button. I bet the pot $8 with my pair of queens.
Everyone folds except the Big Blind who calls.

TURN pot $24
[2h][7s][Qh][Jc]
yay! top two pair. BB checks I bet $20 into the $24 pot.
BB raises to $50. I think a bit a decide to reraise and see what happens. A call is too weak for me and wouldn't get me any info for the river. I think he could be on something like Q7o, 27o, or possibly trips. I raise to $110...(didn't give me enough time to make it to $100 like i wanted.)

He then moves all-in over top of me for $80 more. So I have to call $80 here to win a pot of $400.

I want your guys thoughts on this hand before they are tainted by the outcome. Results later.
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Postby Mad Genius » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:21 pm

I think PF and flop plays are standard, so let's talk about the turn play. Your bet is fine, but when he check-raises, alarms have to setting off. What could he be check-calling and THEN check-raising you with? I don't think it's 2-pair. 2-pair just isn't strong enough to check-raise here, at least for a good player. A flopped set could definately be a possibility, as well as a monster draw such as [Th][9h] or [Kh][Th]. He probably would have raised the flop or at least bet the turn to make sure you don't get cheap cards if you were drawing. If you aren't going to flat-call, I think you need to push the turn. By raising, you are essentially committing yourself, and if he has you beat the rest is going in anyway, so why give him a cheaper shot at drawing out on you if he's on a draw? Once he re-raises you at the end, it looks like a clear set, probably 22 or 77. Why didn't you just call his raise on the turn though? You have position on him on the river and if a blank falls then you can go from there.

By the way, I was thinking about a routine NL scenario that comes up. Say you bet the flop and get called by BB and a blank falls on the turn. He checks to you. What do you do then? Do you still bet $20? What if it was UTG instead of BB? What if they bet into you on the turn?
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Postby Bob314 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:05 am

One thing I like to do when I make a pretty strong like this in a hand against the blinds is bet the flop and then check the turn. Sometimes the blinds will hit something like top pair but think that you are on the button and just trying to pick up the pot, so they'll play it passively. If you bet the pot into them again on the turn then they will frequently fold without a strong hand, and they will for sure fold if they still don't have anything. However, if you check behind them on the turn (which is obviously dangerous in this particular situation because the board is pretty coordinated) you reinforce in their mind that you are just on a steal with the button and you might induce a bluff or what in their mind may be a value bet on the river, which you can then raise or call. You get the blinds to commit more money to the pot when they are behind making this kind of play in my esperience, as even if they check the river they might call with something like mid pair if you make a small bet into them (and since the pot is still relatively small it won't look suspicious).

Anyways, I have to agree with Mad Genius here. Your opponent may not have hand as strong as a set here, but I don't think that coming over the top of the check raise was the right play. If you smooth call there is now about $125 in the pot and your opponent has $150 in front of him. Maybe he leads into the pot for $60 to $90 and you can decide whether or not you want to call and if you do then you won't completely double him up if you are wrong and he does have a monster. Of course, he might just overbet the pot and move in.

It is a really tricky situation. You hate to check and maybe give your opponent a cheap card like that, but at the same time you don't want to slam into trip 7s or trip 2s.

Anyways, that is all lead up to the big decision of whether to call or fold anyways. I don't think he has a strong draw because number 1 he is out of position and number 2 if he wants to scare you into checking the turn or giving him a cheap river he needs to make this move on the flop, not the turn. This play seems to reek of a set to me, but since he checked his big blind he could just as easily have two pair himself. Honestly, if he has a set I'm going to end up paying that last $80 to see it I think.
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Postby iceman5 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:47 am

You said he is an ABC player. In that case, I fold to his turn check raise. He has to have a set.
If he is check raising with some thing else, he isnt ABC. He cant have a lower 2 pair with that board.
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Postby Bob314 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:57 am

woops, I missed the part where you said he was an ABC player. Gotta be a set.
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Postby kennyg » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:09 am

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Postby Stapher » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:54 pm

Don't blame me for this play of your's little bro. All I said was that you should call his last 80 bucks because you still had outs and the pot was so big. You knew in the back of your mind that you were losing this hand but you decieded to reraise anyway because you didn't want to believe it. He played this hand the same exact way you and I play our trips on the flop and turn heads up. Just be happy, you got lucky :D
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