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Another $5/$10 NL hand..tough call - Live Poker Forums

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Another $5/$10 NL hand..tough call

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Another $5/$10 NL hand..tough call

Postby iceman5 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:13 pm

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (9 handed)

UTG+1 ($1065)
MP1 ($1891.50)
MP2 ($479)
MP3 ($1237.35)
CO ($1000)
Hero ($824.50)
SB ($868.50)
BB ($1147.55)
UTG ($3771.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with [As], [Kc].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero raises to $30, SB folds, BB calls $20.

Flop: ($65) [Ac], [6s], [Qc] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $40, BB calls $40.

Turn: ($145) [7d] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $80, BB calls $80.

River: ($305) [3c] (2 players)
BB bets $300, Hero calls $300.

The full pot sized bet looked like a bluff to me so I called. Tough decision though. What is he calling with if he doesnt have the flush draw?

Final Pot: $905

Results in white below:
BB has Ks 6c (one pair, sixes).
Hero has As Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $905.
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Postby Bob314 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:40 pm

Nice call. I don't know if I could have made it, but I see your point about betting the pot being a bluff.

Question:
If betting the pot looks like a bluff because you aren't trying to bet a small amount looking for a call but a smaller bet gets called because you are willing to pay them off to see a cheap showdown, how exactly do you bluff someone on the river?
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Postby kennyg » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:51 pm

Before I looked at the results I would say you are probably beaten here. The only thing you are beating is a bluff or possibly AJ. The flush and AQ look like the prime canidiates to me.
I'm not sure I would have folded either...but you gotta think theres a good chance you're losing here.

Does anyone have this as a definte fold or definite call in this situation? If so, why?
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Postby odogg » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:54 pm

I have to assume that he made his mind up early that he was going to bluf the flush. My only fear there was that you are only beating a pure bluf. Not sure what type of player but he could have flopped 2 pair.

I absolutely hate TPTK when I am getting called on every street for the correct sized bets.

One question.

TPTK to me is a very weak holding when someone appears to be playing a draw. Why not bet the pot to try and take it down earlier?
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Postby Nortonesque » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:09 pm

Along the lines of Bob's question, what do you bet when you do have a flush?

Also, what was the reasoning behind the 1/2 pot bet on the turn? In this situation I always bet between 3/4 and full pot, so I find this interesting.
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Postby kennyg » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:34 pm

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Postby Mad Genius » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:08 pm

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Postby iceman5 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:33 pm

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Like your reasoning here...

Postby Danhdan » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:37 pm

Nice work extrapolating the only information you have on this guy. It worked out well.

Of course, I will still ut this guy in a tricky book because I think he knows how to play you well...because you have stated time and again that you will not pay off the flush chasers which this guy tried to make himself look like, and I also think he knows you don't chase flushes and this move might work against you...but you saw through his bet which was his downfall.

Iceman, you are the Scooby Doo gang rolled into one...

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Postby iceman5 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:58 pm

Dan, you make a good point about me saying I wont pay off flush chasers. This is one major reason that I dont give out my identity at PokerStars

I used to have people from UPF come watch me play and then after a while they started joining my tables and playing with me. I had given away alot of my tendencies on the forum so then I had to start playing one way if a UPFer was in the hand and another way if they werent. Now, I DID get away with some big bluffs against UPFers because they knew (thought) I rarely made big bluffs, but it was still ratherr annoying to have to constantly be changing up my play.

Ive never seen this particular guy before, so he had no read on me Im sure.

I do play as "iceman5" at Full Tilt if anyone wants to come by and say hi. I usually keep my higher stakes play at Stars though. At FTP, you'll find me at $100NL or maybe $400NL every now and then.
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Postby Bob314 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:40 pm

I don't know what was wrong with those UPFers, I saw you on a FT $100 one time and just moved to another table :wink:
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Postby iceman5 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:00 pm

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Re: Another $5/$10 NL hand..tough call

Postby rdale » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:08 pm

I think the thing to note here, is this player may be prone to being set up to call big river bets on his own. One of the things that I look for in finding the tendencies of my opponents is what their big river bet means. If they bluff big on scare cards, you can probably reverse psychology style get them to call your big river bluffs with made hands. If they only bet the nuts big, you have to adjust your value bet to a lower amount. Against the big river bluffer you can at least a few times get away with over value betting, and when the hands are shown it sets you up to make big river bluffs of your own on scare cards against the rest of the table and eventually against the original offender. I love playing the opponent that attempts to steal to checks, and assumes I'm stealing when I over bet, they are generally winning players that are a goldmine if you adjust to take advantage of them and are aware of when they know better.

The thing that makes this work, is people's tendency to examine their own play, draw a connection between their likely action and your current action. Which is a natural human thing to do that is incorrect at the poker table. Each opponent should be guaged on their own actions as information is slowly being given up. If you can exploit one player in this manner with strong hands, it makes it easier to snag pots against others with a wide variety of holdings when you read them for top pair top kicker and able to lay down a solid hand to a threatening board. They have seen the results of your over bets and are more likely to respect them.

I generally don't open up my game like this until I am well ahead of the buy in and have money to gamble with being wrong. But I see this as one of the fundamentals on where to begin to start playing poker and quit playing cards.
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