But a suited connector hits a pair alot of time also. If I raise with 98s and the flop is 942 Im still in good shape alot of the time. Even if its J83 Im still good alot of times. But only when its heads up which is why I like to raise with them instead of playing multiway post with them. I may bet 942 and get called by TT and then the turn is an 8. There are SO many more combinations of good hands with suited connectors.

There are a lot of ways to go after the flop with suited connectors, but in terms of percentage chance of hitting the flop hard, pairs are provably much better.

Since raising is a device usually used to increase the pot size based on an advantageous preflop expectation of value, it seems to me that a deceptive play that has a better statistical chance is raising with small pairs.

I'm still academically convinced that suited connectors are much more suited to calling against an aggressive raiser. And that's because when they hit an absolute monster they are likely to go slow, underestimate your drawing potential and let you in for cheap, making your implied odds extremely attractive (which they have to be, considering the number of times you hit zip on the flop and can't continue, hit a little something but have to give it up to an aggressive bettor, or get a draw and don't make it).

[EDIT: didn't spot second page of posts when typing this - the topic now seems to have been well covered! Anyway:]

My two pennies'...

I raise w (suited) connectors a bit ... (I started as an experiment after Iceman suggested it some time ago in a UPF post).

My rationale is that:
(i) you're basically raising to get action on bigger hands by having an increased PFR ...
(ii) you should be able to break even (or better) by stealing on the flop
(iii) occasionally you flop a draw ... if so, you can take a free card (or, if you steal, it becomes a semi bluff)
(iv) very very occasionally you flop a straight and bust someone who has a set and thinks he's busting you.

In contrast, if you raise with low/low-medium pairs:
(i) you hit a set fairly often, so you don't want to have scared other players off

(of course, if someone else has pre-flop raised and thinned the field, then that person is likely to overcommit)

(ii) there's very little value in the free card

The main danger with raising with suited connectors is that there's almost no difference between flopping two pair, and having AA/KK on a connected board (and this is what you're representing by raising and betting the flop), ie sets, better two pairs, straights and flushes beat both.

So if you get action with your two pair, you're probably beaten, even if your opponent thinks he's busting a big pair! [EDIT:] vs sane opposition!

[EDIT] So my reason for (occasionally) raising with suited connectors is precisely *because* I'm less likely to flop a big hand than with a pocket pair: it's a compromise between having some "winning hand" equity if I'm called, while not wasting better pre-flop drawing hands by using them to steal with ... if that makes any sense?!

What do other people think?

My stats, in case they're of any interest (only about 5K hands, so there's a fair bit of variance in there):

connectors, pre-flop raise by me (3%): +0.10 BB/hand (1BB = 2 big blinds)
connectors, pre-flop raise by someone else (12%): +0.06 BB/hand (this includes a fair bit of limp-folding pre-flop)
connectors, unraised pot: (85%): +0.00 BB/hand

The jury's still out, in any case...

Alot of people will call raises with JJ and play for their stack if the flop is under cards. They are so happy that they didnt get an overcard that they go crazy and forget that Im suppossed to have a bigger pair anyway. So when I have 87s and the flop is 873 I can bust JJ.

I never take the free card if I raised with a suited connector and flop a draw.
Raising with these suckers is not for everyone, but believe me, Ive kept stats for 3-4 months on every hand that I played this way, and the resulting win/loss in $$. My win rate raising any suited connectors (usually 54s-98s) is higher than any other hands except AA and KK. There must be something to it.

I don't doubt you - if it works for you then cool! Never had a problem with the steal aspect of it (apart from the fact that PPs or 'two big' may have better immediate potential).

Let me pose something interesting.. Have you considered that a suited connector for you is like a 'psychological excuse' to put a move on somebody, and that because you 'feel good' about it, your confidence comes across in your betting patterns and wins the day most of the time?

Some people have 'win hands'. For me, it's JJ. When I see that hand, I put on my best show, get 'tuned in' and give my total attention to every nuance I can get. There's no statistical benefit - JJ is JJ - but the fact that I energize with that hand and focus bigtime seems to win it more often than not, whether I have the goods or otherwise.

Just a theory..

Tetsuo,

I really think there is something to it. You put 108s (especially clubs) in my hands and you'd be surprised how I can play that hand. And why do I play the club variation the best.....now logically that is just stupid.

A good friend of mine, MindOverMatter, plays AK incredibly well. Better than anyone I know to be honest with you.

I think a lot of it, for lack of a better term, is a postive winning attitude. Tetsuo with JJ, Ice with suited c's, MindOverMatter AK, and me and with my 108 all won big pots, or had an epiphany playing "our" hands. Since then we play those hands without fear of losing (not stupid mind you).

Testuo ...

Good grief, you are indeed convinced! Thanks for the reply ... as I said, the jury is still out for me... (and even further out following your post)

A few points in response:

(1) I've considered substituting Axs (or 2 x broadway) as my bluff cards ... that would probably be just as good. I guess I'm less convinced by my ability to get away from hands where I hit top pair, weak kicker! See also some very drunken maths, later...

(I view QJ and QT as connectors, so I do sometimes raise with them. Cards that hit these hands are also likely to have hit hands of callers, though)

(2) If I flop a draw and choose not to bet, it's because there's something about the board or opponent that's scared me into checking - so I'm giving up on the hand unless I improve, and therefore don't care if I'm bet into on the turn. Having the bonus of sucking out 20% of the time is quite attractive! I've invented some numbers below, for the case when I bet and are called - something similar applies in this case.

(3) Flopping a straight is equally unlikely whether or not I raise, of course! Say (for example) that a raise increases the chance that I stack an opponent to 50% from 25% (both by disguising my hand and by putting more money in the pot), then that 1% chance translates to an extra 0.12BB/raised hand (assuming 50BB stacks).

(4) I'm pretty sure stealing with pocket pairs is in general a bad idea (because of the high chance of flopping a hand that beats lots of other hands).

Even a very simplistic set of calculations is too much effort, since it would need to take into account the difference between limping and letting in other people (but having to fold if you didn't hit), and raising out people who would have paid you off if you did hit.

But I am pretty sure!!

(5) Finally, I steal raise much less on Party (25BB stacks and whackier players) than on Full Tilt and Paradise (50BB stacks)

SOME MATHS

[EDIT: tidied this up]

Say I livepokerforum (tm) after raising (to 4bb=big blinds), and get called ... what is the benefit of having suited connectors ...?

With no chance to improve... I lose 13bb (4bb raise + 9bb flop bet).

Lets look at the difference in how much I lose when I have some chance of improving:

(1) Suited connectors

OK, so I have like 20% chance of flopping a straight of flush draw?

With a 20% chance to improve the turn 20% of the time, and assuming I get another 20bb on average if i do...

I improve to -11.1bb ( (5 + 9 + 20)*0.2*0.2 - 13*0.96)

And considering two pair, 0.05 of the time I'm paired on the flop (33%), I get to an expectation when called of -10.3bb

(2) Ax suited

this is a bit more complicated, because it depends on whether an A flops ... here's some attempt to work it out ...

An A high flop (I'm called): 30% chance, I need to hit my kicker on the turn (5%), in which case I'll get maybe another 20bb as above, so combined result is -10.6bb

Non A high flop (I'm called): 70% chance, I lose 13bb unless an A turns (5% chance), in which case I get no action (I win 14bb), so combined result is -12.3bb

Combined Ax offsuited expectation when called is -11.8bb

(the probabilities aren't quite accurate as I'm watching MOTD at the same time as doing the sums)

10% of the time I'm 20% to improve (but I'll probably get less than with suited connectors since straights are less easy to spot ... say 10bb extra, 24bb in total) ...

So the expectation when called with Axs is -10.9bb.

These scenarios are all slightly simplistic and highly speculative, eg I've chosen to ignore the times when I get outflushed (as balanced by the times the flush draw doesn't make it, and I bluff the river to win).

But does provide some sort of mathematical evidence that raising with suited connectors isn't completely stupid compared to raising with Axs et al