Hello guys,

I've just started playing nl hold'em and here is my first all-in hand which I also have lost. It was a $25 max Party hand (blinds 0.25/0.50):

Small Blind ( $40.45)
Big Blind ( $142.53)
UTG ( $11.85)
Hero ( $20)
EP3 ( $15.47)
MP1 ( $20.75)
MP2 ( $22.75)
MP3 ( $80.6)
CO ( $25)
Button ( $28.9)

Preflop: I was in EP2 and got [Jc].
UTG folded, I limped, EP3 raised to $3, CO called, both blinds called, I called.

Flop: with $15 in the pot.
Blinds checked, I bet $7, EP3 raised to $12.47 all-in, only the Big Blind called, I called (I would like to reraise all-in in this situation, but 'cos of the all-in raise, only calling or folding was the option).

On the flop I put the EP3 on A-K or A-Q, not on a pair. The BB could have a big range of hands, he's one of the crazy action guys. So A-7s could be possible.

Turn: with $49.81 in the pot.
BB bets $5, I call all-in $4.53.

River: . Full house won main pot, flush won site pot.

BB showed [Ad]
EP3 showed [Tc]
(Both reads were wrong. DAMN.)

After reviewing this hand, I suspect I should have bet $2 or $3 preflop. The next mistake could be betting only half the pot, but I wanted that preflop raiser all-in. I don't think he would call $10 or more in this situation, so I gave him enough space for a raise. What do you think about that hand?? Where would you play it differentely?

Another question: I suspect my preflop play way to tight, all the other players play much more hands and they are winning (instead of me, I'm down around $40). Do you have any tips for the preflop play (books, articles, websites?). And what with the postflop play? Especially what with A-J (or A-T) and a flopped top pair Jacks (Tens) if your bet is raised?


Thanks for reading and answering.

Best wishes and good luck from europe,

Lumberjack

Lumberjack,

You post some excellent questions and show a real willingness to learn. That's incredible!

On to the hand --

I'll present two possible options here. I prefer the first one sometimes, depending on how bad the players are at the table; but the second one is maybe more 'tight'.

The problem in this hand in general is the action before the flop. Everyone is calling a $3 raise and building an ENORMOUS pot in relation to your stack size! This is HUGE trouble for a hand like JJ. I personally prefer, and this is not for everyone -- to re-raise all in with the Jacks *before the flop* given the action that happened. (Meaning you chose to limp, but unfavorable action happened, and when the $3 call comes around to you, reraise.) This forces players with inferior hands to fold right there, or take a coinflip with an AK or AQ. Now this is a play I'd recommend on these extremely LOOSE PASSIVE Party $25NL chucklehead tables. The reason is that people are often calling raises with inferior hands anyway -- Ax, Kx suited, etc. -- such that if any one of them calls, you have a 3:1 (or more!) advantage against them. However, JJ does not play well at all against 4 players! What you are trying to do is win the pot right there.

Now, you didn't do that -- but that is something to consider for the future. You smooth-called. Also not a horrible play. You get what you feel is a favorable flop for jacks -- all undercards. But the problem still is that the pot is enormous! I think when the action comes to you on the flop you have two choices. One is to go all-in right there, bet $17 into the $15 pot -- your hand is vulnerable to overcards and to a diamond flush draw. The only people who are going to call the bet that you made, a $7 bet, are likely drawing to diamonds or overcards. The $7 bet gives them perfect odds to call you for a flush draw (3:1; they are betting 7 to win the $15 pot + your $7 bet). The other problem with the bet is that if the original raiser, who has position on you, has AA, KK, or QQ, they are going to raise you all-in; now you have put $10 of your $20 stack in and are calling $10 to win over $30 if it comes back around to you uncalled -- you are at this point what is called "pot-committed" and mathematically obligated to call with an underdog hand.

The other option -- and what I likely would have done -- is to check and fold those Jacks to action in this hand, since you did not hit your set. There are just better spots to get your money in and you are way too vulnerable against 4 players.

Lumberjack, JJ can be difficult to play in EP. Here's some discussion about it from earlier:
http://livepokerforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623

If you don't have pokertracker yet, I'd recommend downloading it. There's a free trial for the first 1000 hands, so you don't have to decide to buy it right away. Pokertracker will help you evaluate whether you're too tight or not. Winning players generally put money into the pot 15-20% of the time.

It's important to be tight when you're just starting out. Don't judge anything based on one session -- you'll need at least a few thousand hands to start really noticing trends. Those people who play lots of hands and seem to be winning are only winning in the short term. Long term, that's a losing strategy.

If you put EP3 on AK or AQ (how did you come up with this read by the way?), then the best play is to re-raise all-in. Nobody who smooth-called the $3 is ahead of you. Guaranteed (at the Party25 tables, anyway). And you might get a lower pocket pair to come along as well. You are a favorite over AK and AQ, and if you take into account the dead money that 4 or 5 people just put in, you are getting great pot odds on a hand where you are likely ahead and don't have to play the flop and beyond with a trouble hand out of position against many players.

I wouldve folded preflop. When he raised 6BBs, you have to assume he has a big pair and therefore you are playing for a set. Niehter you nor the preflop raiser have big enough stacks for you to call that raise with the intention of playing for a set. It helps that you had another caller (that had a big stack) but yoiu really need the big stack to be the raiser.
You can put him on AK or AQ. You wanted him to have AK or AQ. If you really put him on AK or AQ, then you shouldve reraised preflop. Of course you cant really do that with the other caller in, which is why I would fold to the raise.

As it played out, you had the best hand and just got unlucky.

Iceman, it is costing him $2.50 to see a flop in what is going to be a $15 pot, and he is last to act. I think this gave lumberjack ample odds to call to chase a set. The only possible argument against this is the possibility that, with so many callers, there's another jack out there somewhere, but I think getting 5-1 on the call it's a pretty easy one to make preflop.

The $3 raise signifies EITHER AK/AQ or a pair TT or better, unless you have a specific read that this guy raises a lot. Pokertracker, as mentioned above, is a great tool here - you can find out what % of hands this guy raises preflop (if you've played a significant number of hands against him); if it's somewhere in the 5-10% region, chances are he's raising all his pairs tens and over, his big aces, and possibly now and again the likes of KQ. A $3 raise looks pretty strong, though, so I'd have him on some sort of hand he wants to play hard and fast, a big pair or AK most likely. Out of all the possible hands he may have raised preflop with, you're only dominating TT (i.e. against all other hands you're a big underdog or about evens), so I don't see how you can re-raise all in here. HOWEVER, if we assume that the other callers may or may not have a jack (i.e. that all 3 callers are no more likely to hold a jack than if they hold random hands) then you have a 7-1 chance of hitting a set on the flop, and you are getting "pot odds" of 5-1; that is, you have to pay 1 unit to the 5 units currently in the pot ($12.50 in the pot and it costs you $2.50 to see a flop). So, if we assume your only real chance of winning here is hitting a set of jacks, you do not have correct pot odds to call. That fails to take into account the implied odds of winning big if you DO hit. If the raiser has AK and the flop comes AJ5, you will take his stack. If someone has a lower pair and hits a low set to you JJJ, you will win their stack. With the pot so big, and the stacks relatively low, there is every chance you may win two or more stacks if you catch a set of jacks, so there is a chance that that 1 in 8 shot, if it hits, will pay you off with a collosal pot. Therefore the "implied odds" of making your winning hand make it worth calling the $2.50 to see if you can hit your set.

HOWEVER, this pre-supposes you can lay down your JJ if you don't hit. Against 4 opponents you really need to make a set to be especially confident here, and you were very "lucky" to get all in on the flop with the best hand. Anyone with two overcards to a flush draw (AKs) is a little better than evens to beat you, anyone with a higher pair or (QQ, KK, AA) or a low set (55, 77 etc) is beating you here and has you practically dead in the water. You are highly unlikely to get called/bet into by a hand that you can beat against most opponents, and evn at NL25 where the opposition is very loose, it's marginal as to whether your jacks have much chance of being ahead on a 5-handed low flop. If you were going to get all in on a low flop, you are supposing you're NOT facing a bigger pocket pair and thus you should have got all in on the flop.

In summary, there would be two correct ways to play this hand, given the small stacks involved:
1) If you think you're ahead preflop, move all in, thus reducing the number of opponents and getting it heads up. I really don't see any situation on a 25NL table against so many callers when you can really say JJ is definitely ahead.
2) Otherwise, call and try to hit a set, and muck your hand if you miss.

A third option as iceman pointed out is to fold preflop, which would certainly not be terrible here but I think for $2.50 you can afford to take a peek at a flop in a $15 pot.

Hope this helps.

Monk
xxxxx

Hi,

thanks for answering.

About my read of the the preflop raiser: I made some notes (as I've read on the main page) and had the following notes: "preflop KK: raises (one limper) to $2" and "preflop AKs: raises (one limper) to $3". Sure, I saw that only once (and I guess it was in other positions), but I sticked to it and was telling me (;-)) he does that every time. Well... I agree, I need to see that more often to put them on a specific hand.

Well, next time I bet all-in on the flop and let the others decide if the want to draw without the pot odds they need. But reraise all-in with JJ preflop... I wouldn't feel comfortable with that play.


Take care,
Lmberjack

Again, you need to look at it as being situation-dependent. I almost NEVER re-raise PF with JJ. However, if I had a specific read that the raiser had AK and there were just a bunch of callers (meaning none of them have QQ or better obviously) I wouldn't have a problem pushing all-in. Why? Because not only are you getting all your money in as a favorite with pot odds, but JJ is such a tough hand to play in almost any flop, especially with so many players out. You have less than 50xBB, which isn't a sufficient stack to play the flop and still be able to let it go. By the time you find out you are beat, your stack will probably be in the middle. Thus, unless you think there might be an overpair out there, I would push. If you think there is a reasonable chance of an overpair being out there, though, you should call ONLY for a set and be prepared to fold, even if all rags fall.

OK, theres was more callers than I thought so calling preflop is OK, but Im still playing for a set.