I'll preface this with a few things:

1) This ONLY applies to loose games with an average of four or more people seeing the flop.

2) Do NOT follow this advice if you're a poor post-flop player.

You always should try to extract maximum value from your hands AND your strong-draws. If you're someone who check-calls in a multi-way pot with a flush draw, open-ended straight draw, or a draw with even more outs, you are not making the most profitable play. If you're someone who bets your stronger draws, but NEVER 3-bets or caps them on the flop, you're also not making the most money possible from these hands. In either of these cases, you are not playing well post-flop.

For detail on why you should be raising and re-raising your strong draws on the flop, check out this post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showt ... PHPSESSID=

Of course there are other symptoms of poor post-flop play. One of the bigger ones is not folding marginal hands and marginal draws in small pots.

Okay, onto the actual post:
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I used to play closer to 14% of my hands, but now I play closer to 18% of my hands. I attribute this mostly to reading SSHE and changing from UB's weak-tight tables to PP's loose-passive tables. And you know what? I've made an ABSURD amount of profit from these changes. If you're only playing 14% of your hands at these 40+ VP$IP tables, you are missing out on SO MANY profitable situations, such as this:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , . MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) , , (7 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (18.25 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

Look at that final pot! Okay... now look again. Isn't that amazing? Even considering the few times you miss your 8+ outter draws, you will end up with a significant profit. Always pump your strong draws in these situations.

Notice that this table was EXCEPTIONALLY loose-passive (more than 6 players seeing the flop on average and almost NO pre-flop raising). In tighter and more aggressive games I would have dumped A9s-A2s UTG in a heart-beat. Not here!

Another example with AXs:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) , , (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) (4 players)
SB calls $0.26 (All-In), UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13.52 BB) (3 players, 1 all-in)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 14.52 BB

If MP3 folded, I would have just called the re-raise on the flop. Once again, the idea is to get the most money in the pot as possible. You do not want to make everyone face two-bets cold. Here I knew I'd at least get two callers when I re-raised.

T9s in an extremely loose game:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14 SB) , , (8 players)
SB bets, BB calls $0.50 (All-In), UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO folds, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (17.50 BB) (7 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (26.50 BB) (5 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28.50 BB

I would have played this hand the exact same with only two limpers before me. Notice I did slow down on the turn despite hitting my flush. But NO WAY am I folding it! If you fold flushes in big pots you're folding WAY too many winning hands.

I'll write more later..

You'd be CRAZY not to pump that flop. Considering the texture of that game, I'd probably be playing A8s UTG as well.

You also have to understand that other than my short limit excursion at Empire, I have NEVER played at a full ring table with a VP$IP > 40% online. Live, yes, I see 4-6 to a flop frequently, especially at Taj and Trop. Live, I adjust accordingly to the donkeys playing, and I enjoy taking their money. I still don't play K8s from the SB...

To summarize my post about SB play found here:

As a reminder, this ONLY should be done when the right table conditions have been met. Don't play like this when there's only one limper! And do not play like this when the pot has been raised!

With at least two limpers, complete in the SB with any suited connector (including 1 gapper or 2 gapper). With at least THREE limpers, complete in the SB with ANY TWO SUITED cards.

When you pick up a straight draw, flush draw, two-pair, or better, leading out with a bet is almost 100% of the time the best play. A few examples:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
3 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) , , . (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks.

River: (3.50 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

(One could argue for a call on the river to induce an overcall incase I'm beaten by a fh and I wouldn't disagree.)

Since I missed my draw on the turn (and it paired the board) I no longer had the equity to bet out. A check-call is in order here.

One could argue for a bet on the turn as a semi-bluff. I'll talk a little more about semi-bluffing later with my T4s hand. For now, I'll just say the turn semi-bluff wouldn't be a terrible play. I wouldn't argue with anyone who did it in this situation.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) , , . (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (9 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Since there were only three people left in the pot on the flop and I might make it heads-up by re-raising on the flop, I ended up calling. This is to emphasize you do not always want to 3-bet or cap the flop with these strong draws.

The turn card was horrible, so a check-call was in order. I would have check-called the river as well unless it was raised and re-raised to me. I only had to be right 10% of the time there.

When I said suited connectors, I really meant ANY suited connectors. Here's the powerful 32s:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) , , . (7 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds.

River: (10.50 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

And sometimes it's okay to semi-bluff the turn, like I did here with T4s:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, 5 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) , , (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5 BB

I semi-bluffed the turn for a few reasons.

1) Tthere were only two other players left in the pot (which also means a bet would deny weaker draws the necessary odds) and they weren't complete calling stations.

2) No one showed any strength pre-flop or on the flop on what might be a scary board.

3) I picked up an open-ended straight draw along with my flush draw.

Now I'm not saying to always semi-bluff here. Just consider it. As a general guideline, when two or more of those conditions are met, go for it. You have a decent amount of fold equity.

... more to come!

The biggest leak you can have in your game is folding the winning hand in big pots. Occasionally you'll overplay some hands and lose 3 or 4 BBs, but when you fold the winning hand in big pots, you sometimes lose 12 or more BBs! Don't get carried away with this, but remember to ALWAYS consider the pot odds before deciding on an action. When the pot is huge, calling down on the river with middle pair is fine:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) , , (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 6c 9c (one pair, jacks).
MP2 has 6s 2s (two pair, jacks and twos).
Hero has 5h 4h (two pair, jacks and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.50 BB.

First some reads... BB was a COMPLETE maniac and people were calling down with crap like Q-high, A-high, bottom-pair, and busted draws.

I had bottom pair, a backdoor straight draw, and a backdoor flush draw on the flop. Given the 15:1 odds, I obviously should continue with the hand. On the turn I pick up a flush draw with my pair so I absolutely cannot fold. Now the river... that's more complicated.

On the river I was given 15:1 odds, which meant calling there only had to be correct 6% of the time. Since the river paired the J and no one showed any aggression except the maniac, it became most unlikely anyone had a J.

Always remember the pot odds. 94% of the time I would lose here - and that's a ridiculous amount of the time - but it still was the correct call to make if you think you have that little chance of winning. It's only 1 more BB and when you're right 6% of the time, you profit from it.

Not sure I like the river overcall on that last one. If MP2 hadn't called, then I'd go ahead and call, but the chances of BB bluffing into 3 players and MP2 calling with a worse hand seem worse than 1 in 15 to me.

I would never play like that in a tighter game (mostly because the odds would be drastically different). I would probably have folded pre-flop, and even if I didn't, I wouldn't have had the odds to call the flop.

When you lambast me for calling with middle pair, you're not even paying attention to the pot odds. Or how ridiculously loose and stupid the table was. 94% of the time I would lose with that call, but still, it's the right call to make (given the table conditions).

I dunno. Pick a reasonable percentage that the maniac is betting with worse than a 5, and pick a reasonable percentage that MP2 is calling with worse than a 5, and multiply them together. I have to be pretty optimistic to come up with better than 1/15.

I cannot objectively respond to that since I know the results.

What would a maniac bet on the river I can beat? Unimproved a-high, busted draw, bottom pair, and absolutely nothing are all candidates. Heads-up against the maniac I would call this river regardless of the odds.

What would an extra loose caller call with here that I can beat? A-high, busted draw (I've seen them even call down with 8-high!!), and bottom pair. It was quite obvious he didn't have a J.

Can I eeke out 6% here? Once again, this isn't an objective analysis since my thoughts are results-oriented now. If I only had a-high or bottom pair, I would fold here because of the overcall. But here I had middle pair (ignoring the J since there's a great chance no one had it).

When I see the top-pair on the board pair up, I assume the 2nd pair is the best one. I try not to play with Monsters Under My Bed. This is just basic probabilities. With two jacks on the board, there was only two jacks left in the deck - making it far more likely no one has a jack than if there were three jacks left in the deck.

There's many adjustments you must make to crush extremely loose low-limit games. Those who have read and understood the concepts in SSHE have a HUGE advantage over other players in these games - that's the skill element.

You bet your marginal hands for value more. You have the odds to play many more speculative hands. You have the odds to call with many weak draws. You pre-flop raise hands in positions you would probably fold from in tighter games. Since there's more huge pots, you make more liberal calls on the river. You bet the living crap out of your stronger draws since you'll be called in enough places to actually be a bet for value.

Since I cannot figure out how to delete this duplicate response, I have filled it with this!

I'll probably write about betting marginal hands for value next time.

The problem is that you have middle pair with the second weakest kicker. Pretty much any other 5 beats you. I'm all for making liberal calls in big pots, but you need a much stronger hand for an overcall, no matter how weak your opponents are.

There is also the SB, who may call as well.

I wish I could find a clearer hand example of calling on the river with marginal hands. This one could be argued either way - it's hard to say whether I would win 6% here or even less. This was an extremely borderline call on the river.

Anyhow, I'm going to leave this thread open for discussion on all these issues. And starting a Part 2 thread for further topics.

I really don't feel like Piers "Beating Online Limit Hold'Em" sticky is the most profitable way to play loose low-limit games. Reading, re-reading, and applying SSHE concepts will crush these games and that's what my posts detail.

*No disrespect to Piers or anything. I know he's an exceptional player and has much more experience than me. But his guide was meant for beginners play to keep them out of trouble, and I think eventually people need to take the training wheels off. When you do, you'll become a much better player. I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

So, if you're just starting limit hold'em and haven't read too much, stick with Piers guide and you'll still be a winner. But if you want more than break-even play, you have to better adjust to the situations.