One of the key things to learn in becoming a winning limit player is how to extra the maximum from your winning hands. Don't just go on auto pilot and think damn I flopped a monster this pot is mine, be thinking yes this pot is very likely mine but how can I get the most from it. What is your play on the flop, why? Other info, the preflop raiser is very loose preflop (VIP 40ish) but very passive post flop (<1.00 Aggr.). The button is also extremely loose preflop (>40ish VIP) and not overly aggressive either post flop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (11 SB) , , (5 players)
SB checks,

Well, I'm not too interested in trying to trap everyone in with a flop check-raise, because there are really no reasonable draws here. I also doubt your opponents are capable of dropping top pair for two bets, so I lead out here, obviously hoping to be raised.

Your other two options, obviously, are check-call or check-raise. Even though I think this flop is very likely to bet bet by someonie, that bet is not likely to be called by very much other than an ace. So check-raising gives you the problem that you might not have anyone much to trap in anyway, plus it gives away the strength of your hand.

Check-calling is just bad, because it gives you no real information (unless there's a bet and a raise), so you don't know whether you can get away with a check-raise on the turn.

If you lead out and get raised, I'd call because I think you'll probably be able to get it for 2 bets on the turn. If you lead out and get called, just bet it down.

In summary, I think that if one of your opponents has an ace, a lead-out can get you 2 SB's on the flop, 2 on the turn, and 1 on the river...where as check-raising is more likely to get you 2 SB's on the flop, and just 1 each on the turn and river.

-TW

Most of the time this would be a check/raise from me on the flop, but w/ these two players Im going to play it hard, capping if possible.

Im afraid that if i just check it, both of these guys are just gonna check.
And if i check raise i might loose both players and i want them IN!
I really hate to check/call but that would prob be an ok play, but I really hate doing that.

I don't really care here if my raising opponent is passive or aggressive post flop as I am going to do the same regardless and that is I am going to bet out on this flop. The pot is already 11 bets and most folks will call with alot of shit (MK's draw to a draw theory ) even on this ragged board trying to hook up with something. What I want to happen is that the preflop raiser or the button raises it up with their A as someone is very likely to have one given all the folks in the hand and it having been raised preflop. I do not want to go for a CR here as that would give UTG an easy way to get away with not putting any more money into the pot and would also give away alot of information about the strength of my hand. Onward.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises,
1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (11 SB) , , (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero


By the way TW I am surprised you haven't challenged me to Match of 7 stud h/l as of yet. What gives?

I'm kinda tempted to try calling and leading out on the turn, as donkish as it sounds. I really see a 3-bet here losing both middle players, who are likely drawing VERY thinly against you. Rather than drive them out, I'd prefer to get another bet out of each of them, and then if they pick up their draw or a pair on the turn, they'll pay me another big bet. Plus, even though the button is not extremely aggressive, he might just raise the whole (remaining) field again on the turn, which would obviously be nice.

Piers, I'll definitely be down for a LHE match or two in a couple days, once I get a little cash on stars. And who knows, if I'm drunk enough I might just take ya up on the Stud-8 as well

-TW

Damn TW I don't know if I want to play you in a HI limit match you are starting to think too much like me

The best move by far in this situation is a call in my opinion. You have two folks already committed to one bet in the pot and I can tell you they are going to call one more bet regardless of what they are holding 99.99% of the time. If you three bet here they are gone in almost all instances and you will have lost their two extra bets on the flop while gaining only one most likely from the button. This board is so inert of danger to my hand I have no fear whatsoever of giving these guys another card on the turn. The lack of a raise after my bet from the preflop raiser is pretty much a sign he doesn't have an Ace but probably some other pair. By keeping these guys in the pot hopefully you can extract even more out of them if they happen to pick up something on the turn.

Onward.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (11 SB) , , (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) (4 players)


What is your turn play? Would this play change if say the preflop raiser had been the flop raiser instead of the button?

yes the donkish lead out move is the best one in my opinion. You don't want to check to the raiser here and call or CR. It is much better to again give the other two folks an opportunity to come along for one bet and if the button pops you again then you can three bet. The river of course is another bet. IF the original raiser had raised my flop bet instead of the button then I would have checked it to him and CR him and the button for extra turn bets but since the flop raise came on the button I would only be able to punish him and thus lose value in the hand playing it this way.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (11 SB) , , (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (12.50 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 8s 8h (three of a kind, eights).
Button has 3s As (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.