NL100 $1/2 blinds Party/Empire

Loose/agressive player: $90
Me: $400

LAP limps UTG. insane amount of other limpers. I'm on the button with
I raise to $12. everyone folds but the UTG LAP calls. I really respect his play. He's winning lots of pot with good, solid, and agressive play.

FLOP pot: $31


LAP checks to me. My tens are looking great with this flop. All under cards to my pocket 10s. I put the slider bar to a pot bet of $30 like usual....then I stop and think.

This LAP is a very good player. If he check-raises me all-in here, it would be another $50 for me to call. I would be completely unsure whether to call or fold. He could have something like or . Or he could have me killed with a hand like or . I don't enjoy being in those situations with good players.

I also don't like the fact that if he calls here and paint hits on the turn, my cards become even less worthwhile. He may even lead out all-in when an over hits. I've seen him make those kinds of plays.

I put him all-in for the $80 he has left and put him to the test. I decide if he has something like the A9 he may call...thinking it's a bluff. If he has JJ...he can't be sure whether I have AA-QQ or not and might even fold.

Basically, I did not want to let myself get outplayed by this talented poker player. Any thoughts guys? I've never really make a huge overbets like that...but I still feel it was the best solution.

He folded and mucked by the way. He let his timer run down to 15 seconds. I did not ask him about his holdings.

All intelligent comments, postive or otherwise are appreicated!

I think your logic is faulty. You cannot simultaniously advocate a play because it will get him to call with A9 sometimes and because he'll fold JJ sometimes -- if he would call with A9, he would certainly call with JJ.

I understand that you're saying that it gives him more uncertainty and he might make a mistake in either direction, but I think you're dangerously close to falling into a mental trap -- thinking that if he has a bad hand he'll think it's a bluff and if he has a good hand he'll be scared of you.

I like the play itself though, and I do things similar to that all the time when I'm playing NL Omaha, because there are usually 3 players at the table that take money from me all day long. I give up on them -- when I have the nut hand on the turn or river, I invariably go all in and just wait for the poorer players to call me. I'll make the same move on semibluffs so that about 25% of the time I do this I have a drawing hand instead of a made one. In Omaha it makes no sense to do this with a second best kind of hand in my opinion because the "representing a bluff" aspect of the play is nearly toast.

If he's loose aggressive, would he really limp UTG with JJ?

By going all-in on the flop, I think you are extremely likely to take down the pot. You've basically announced that you have a weak overpair and don't want to see any scare cards hit. Occasionally, I see people making this play when they hit a set, but given that you overbet the pot by far, it's unlikely that you would be risking making so little with your set. If your opponent is as good as you think him to be, then I think it's clear that he won't call you with a hand like A9 - unless you have shown to have the ability to bluff big in the past. I am almost sure that he doesn't have JJ-AA, just because an aggressive player raises with these or only limps UTG to re-raise. Even if JJ is a minor possibility, I could see how he would lay that down since your play looks a lot like QQ (or JJ, but if he has it he can't think you have it too). This leaves 99, 66, and 33 to be the only hands that he could realistically have that beat you. Would a LAP really check to you after hitting a set? I think it's doubtful. Besides, I think a LAP raises UTG with 99 more often than not. His most likely holding is probably two high cards which missed him.

Given the very high probability that you won't get called, I think this play is just fine. However, I'd definately not make it a habit of making hyper-aggressive plays like this too often as a lot of tricky players are capable of trapping in a hand like this.

I think the fact you raised to 12 preflop after so many limpers indicates a 9+ pocket pair, though I do think it's a situation where if you're called you're beaten. In his position, I'd check to you because on that flop you'll either have a hand or not, though with you being a strong pre flop raiser I'd expect a bet anyway. This is why I say you get called by hands that beat you and no others as you say he is a decent player

Personally I would say this is a move to put on a loose playerwho might call with a lower pocket pair thought either way you are at the mercy of being trapped

Molina

If this guy is playing so well and taking alot of pots why does he only have 90 bucks on a 100 dollar by in table? Also, if he really is a lap then he would've raised with only decent hole cards and probably even a middle pocket pair so the only thing he could have that's beating you is trips. In this situation I would think that I have the best hand 95 percent of the time and would make the same play just to take the pot down right there. He is going to have to pay to catch that overcard(s). If I take a pot that's 6-7 times the bb I'm always happy.

Alright kenny, there's good news and bad news. The good news is its a play you've never done before. The bad news is the logic you used to come up with this course of action this time.

You state "I don't want to bet $30, because then I don't know whether I should call or not if he pushes" So in other words you don't want to be in a position where you may make a bad move if he has you beat, you call, and you double him up. But your way to avoid this is to push all in? This makes no sense logically whatsoever, since you are going to double him up if he has you beat by him just calling.

In fact, the only thing that pushing here truly accomplishes is avoiding any situation where he might push if you have the best hand. Can you think of a single hand that is better than yours now that he will fold with?

If you're willing to push all in here, why are you hesitant to call an all in here? If you push all in there is ZERO chance that he will fold a hand that beats yours. there's almost an equally nothing chance that he will call with a hand you can beat. If he pushes and you call there is a MUCH larger chance that you are ahead of him. If he is a favorite the chips are going in either way, so that doesn't matter. All that matters is the way to play to 1) protect your hand and 2) have the best chance of getting his chips in there if he is behind.

It almost seems like your logic is more along the lines of "not wanting him to go in as an underdog and outdraw me" as opposed to making the correct +EV play.

While this would be a bad situation for you to be in, I think you'll see a move like this very rarely from most players.

Regardless, if your only other option is pushing all in on the flop, its more +EV to let him smooth call on the flop, and then call him on the turn regardless of the overcard. Because in the 2nd case, you're getting all the money in more often when he's bluffing and you're ahead, as opposed to pushing and having him call you.

I don't like this one bit, kenny. If I'm in his shoes and I see you making that move, I call you down with any pair JJ or higher (smells to me like you might have AK) most likely, and certainly QQ, KK and AA. These all seem very unlikely hands If I have a set, obviously I'm calling. And if I have two overcards, I'll lay it down. So you're getting called (most likely) by every hand that beats you, and perhaps by an A9 that doesn't (and even then he has 5 outs).

Additionally, what's the big problem with him calling with two overcards? You're LOVING players who play like this, sure he might catch his 6 outer on the turn and you might lose some more $, but the other 4 times in 5 that a scare card doesnt hit, you can charge him AGAIN on the turn (I would probably pump it again on any card except Q, K and A). Why would you want to discourage him from making a big mistake to play this down with two overcards? The pot is not so big that you wouldn't mind DOUBLING the size of stack you win (pot in middle + one pot-sized call) for him to chase a hand he has got something like a 15% chance of hitting on the turn. If the turn brings any card 2-T then you've got to be happy with the situation (except very possibly a 9). Once he's called the bet, IF he calls the bet, you probably have to survive the river too, but that's kind of a moot point.

Upshot - it's hugely likely he has two overcards here. I would consider Q's and K's to be the two cards most likely to derail your hand, closely followed by A's. I wouldn't like to see any of those on the turn. BUT - did you consider that, with a whole table of limpers, a LOT of Q's, K's and A's have probably already hit the muck after your raise preflop? I would think if he has a hand like AQ, KQ etc that he's probably gunning for only 3 or 4 live outs, maximum, and perhaps drawing very thin indeed. The other possibility is that he has a low-ish pair. In this case, he'll presumably check-raise or raise later on with a set (and I doubt you can do much about that, unless he makes that play on the flop, then you can perhaps weigh up the amoount of money in the pot against the small possibility he's bluffing, and most likely lay it down). He'll presumably fold a low pair whether your raise is all-in or pot-sized.

So, the logic of the hand is simple, NL thinking - you want to put enough money into the pot so that he's making a big mistake by calling two overcards, but not SO MUCH money that the only thing he'll call you down with is a better hand. The chances of a major scare card hitting on the turn are almost certainly less than 1 in 5. He stands very little chance of holding a higher pair, and if he has a set it's up to you whether you pay off or believe a check-raise. Therefore, it seems clear that the correct play is to bet out the size of the pot.

Thoughts?

Monk
xxxx