in the 22 types of hands, how many people were in the pot?

as striker said, post some hands and/or stats to support your points. i actually believe what you are saying, but i think that there may be critical parts of the story that you aren't telling us (and may not even notice).

just an example on the 22 hand... i've looked up people who were chronic bluffers with an underpair... and then hit a set.

i've also called thinking that i was drawing to a 2-outer knowing that i have the correct implied odds to draw. for example, i have 22 (or some other smallish pair), call a pot-sized bet of a small pot (i was probably behind) from an aggressive opponent. i hit my set on turn, he bets pot and i call. he bets on river, and i put him all in, he calls, and i win. i had the correct implied odds to call that small flop bet if i think that villain will pay me off with his stack.

i'll see if i can find a hand like this in my db. i've played most of my nl on pokerchamps, which sadly does not support hand histories or PT.

[edited for diction and other corrections]

some examples of possible important details:

- lots of people are in the pot

- you're willing to pay off your stack with TPTK or bottom 2pr (or whatever)

- you're willing to put your stack in the middle with a strong hand on a three-card flush board

- you bluff a lot

- you have a weak table image (e.g., you've been showing down lots of losing hands)


all of these or none of these may apply to you... i'm just offering up some examples of people against whom i will chase without proper pot odds but usually very good implied odds.

i hear ya Kuso. When i'm in a Multiway pot with TPTK If I don't narrow the field on the flop, I'll usually slow down since I know Top pair is unlikely to win against all of them. I might do this by betting half the pot or 1/3 the pot and maybe checking the river or betting 1/3 of the pot on the river. Sometimes someone might go all in on a bluff to pick up the pot if I check, but sometimes they'll make a smallish bet at the pot and I can call it down given my pot odds.

I never feel very strong with TPTK anyway and my goal is to usually win a small pot with them. Same goes for pocket AA and KK post flop. If I don't pick up the pot on the flop I will usually start to slow down. If the pot is getting large it usually becomes too big to manage and I look for a cheap showdown and sometimes consider folding to large raises. I try not to commit too many chips to the pot unless I have top two pair or better.

the problem with TPTK (or AA, KK, etc.) with a lot of people seeing the flop is that the only people who are going to call are people who have a good draw or are ahead of you.

for example, with 5 other people seeing the flop, 2pr or set hands are not uncommon. this is the guy who will call you and the rest may fold. the point is, you're still behind.

i read somewhere that 2pr is the "average" winning hand at showdown when playing ss he (this may be limit, but you get the point). just a thought.

Of course, no sooner do I make that last post than this happens...

Party Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
6 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) , , (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (7.70 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ks (three of a kind, kings).
CO has 5h Qh (flush, ace high).
Outcome: CO wins 13.70 BB.


Long term, I'm getting a lot more of CO's money than he's getting of mine, so the occasional suck-out is ok.

I played at party for 2 years (until 2004) and have completely lost track of how much money I've made there. The only reason I play anywhere else is for rakeback and bonuses. Since you say you have pokertracker, lets see some numbers.

PS: If you think AA is only good for sets and prefer AK, you have bigger problems than a rigged deck.

***** Hand History for Game 2878527979 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, November 12, 19:47:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 36599 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: atom44 ( $126.20 )
Seat 1: Me ( $127.75 )
Seat 6: benmckee ( $42.33 )
Seat 4: Gugge25 ( $11 )
Seat 5: New_slang ( $69.15 )
Seat 3: NastyNik1982 ( $55.70 )
New_slang posts small blind [$0.25].
benmckee posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Me [ 4s 4c ]
Me calls [$0.50].
NastyNik1982 raises [$2].
Gugge25 folds.
New_slang folds.
benmckee calls [$1.50].
Me calls [$1.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 4h, Td ]
benmckee checks.
>You have options at Table 36630 (6 max) Table!.
Me bets [$3].
NastyNik1982 raises [$6].
benmckee folds.
Me calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
Me checks.
NastyNik1982 bets [$7].
>You have options at Table 36630 (6 max) Table!.
Me raises [$14].
NastyNik1982 calls [$7].
** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
Me bets [$35].
NastyNik1982 is all-In.
Me shows [ 4s, 4c ] three of a kind, fours.
NastyNik1982 shows [ Qc, Ad ] a flush, ace high.
Me wins $1.30 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, fours.
NastyNik1982 wins $111.65 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

Another bullshit setup compliments of party poker

***** Hand History for Game 2878543806 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, November 12, 20:08:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 55013 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Lastat699 ( $28.60 )
Seat 2: vitscho ( $124.30 )
Seat 3: me ( $98.50 )
Seat 4: sammy_g ( $103.25 )
Seat 5: Asspokers ( $20 )
Seat 6: JShootz ( $53.05 )
me posts small blind [$0.50].
sammy_g posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to me [ 6c 3c ]
Asspokers folds.
>You have options at Table 36592 (6 max) Table!.
vitscho: first time playing lastat??
JShootz calls [$1].
Lastat699 calls [$1].
Lastat699: nope
me calls [$0.50].
sammy_g checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, Jc, Kc ]
me checks.
sammy_g bets [$3].
JShootz folds.
Lastat699 calls [$3].
me calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
me checks.
vitscho: no....loll just stupid then
sammy_g bets [$12].
Lastat699 is all-In.
vitscho: lol
me calls [$24.60].
sammy_g is all-In.
me is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
>You have options at Table 36592 (6 max) Table!.
sammy_g shows [ 4c, Qc ] a flush, king high.
Lastat699 shows [ Js, Kd ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
me doesn't show [ 6c, 3c ] a flush, king high.
sammy_g wins $4.75 from side pot #2 with a flush, king high with queen kicker.
sammy_g wins $139.80 from side pot #1 with a flush, king high with queen kicker.
sammy_g wins $84.80 from the main pot with a flush, king high with queen kicker.
he was very stupid

Redhouse AK is a better hand than AA since its easier to know where you're at after a flop. If all in before the flop I'd take AA, but I'm not sure about KK since any ace is only a 2 to 1 dog against me all in preflop. Also if I flop TPTK with AK there are only two other cards on the flop that are likely to have helped my opponent making hands like two pair and sets harder to hit.

And to top it off. All three of these hands have been in the last 30 minutes. Love party poker do we?

***** Hand History for Game 2878553210 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, November 12, 20:20:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 63519 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Ratfish1 ( $407.50 )
Seat 3: AznTiltU ( $438.40 )
Seat 5: shadowman113 ( $333.90 )
Seat 6: soundsofsoul ( $250.70 )
Seat 4: me ( $411.35 )
AznTiltU posts small blind [$2].
me posts big blind [$4].
soundsofsoul posts big blind + dead [$6].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to me [ 4d 4c ]
shadowman113 folds.
soundsofsoul checks.
Ratfish1 raises [$18].
therazor21 has joined the table.
AznTiltU calls [$16].
me calls [$14].
soundsofsoul folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, Kc, 4s ]
AznTiltU checks.
me bets [$50].
Ratfish1 calls [$50].
AznTiltU calls [$50].
** Dealing Turn ** [ As ]
AznTiltU checks.
me bets [$100].
Ratfish1 calls [$100].
therazor21 has left the table.
AznTiltU raises [$250].
me is all-In.
Ratfish1 is all-In.
AznTiltU calls [$93.35].
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
AznTiltU shows [ Kd, Ac ] two pairs, aces and kings.
me shows [ 4d, 4c ] three of a kind, fours.
Ratfish1 shows [ Kh, Ks ] three of a kind, kings.
me wins $7.70 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, fours.
Ratfish1 wins $1226.50 from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.