Paradise Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed)

Hero ($50.75)
CO ($21.50)
Button ($9.25)
SB ($61.00)
BB ($44.00)
UTG ($91.50)
UTG+1 ($57.00)
MP1 ($53.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with , , , . SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB (poster) raises to $1, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.50, MP1 raises to $1.5, Hero calls $1, SB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($6.50) , , (4 players)
SB bets $4.5, UTG folds, MP1 calls $4.50, Hero calls $4.50.

Turn: ($20) (3 players)
SB bets $5, MP1 calls $5, Hero raises to $40, SB folds, MP1 calls $35.

River: ($105) (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $4.75, MP1 calls $4.75.

Final Pot: $114.50

Results in white below:
MP1 has 2h Ks 4c Ac (one pair, twos).

Outcome: Hero wins $114.50.
What do you think of peeling one off on the flop with a king high flush draw and 2 pocket pairs?

fold pre-flop


i'd be more tempted to call the flop bet w KKTTds or KKQQds. the problem with the double krablar is that the hitting the 3 puts you in strange position -- you'll have enough to bet to try to take down the pot, but you'll (probably) be hating life iif you get a caller. the flush hitting is not really much different.

the pf fold would save you a lot of headaches.

you can't be serious....fold a double paired, double suited hand with one of the pairs being high for a min raise and a min reraise?

I wouldn't even limp it. Guess I'm playing too tight

I just figure 3's suck since they can at best make middle sets, and K high flush is no way to make money so it's really just a KK hand and I don't want to play two-card hands in a four-card game.

*** disclaimer ***

I'm a freaking newbie so obviously my comment has no validity and should be treated more like a question, which is how it was intended.

I limp with JJ-AA no matter the side cards in any position pretty much. I make so much from high sets that I am gonna see a flop and bust someone. TT and lower need good side cards. This doesn't mean i call any raise with them but I will call moderate raises like pocket pairs in nlhe, set it or forget it. In this case, there is a min raise and a min reraise after i already limped. I can understand about folding the flop but I don't understand how you can even advocate folding preflop. This is PLO, not PLO8.

I'm not "advocating" folding it (read my disclaimer!), I just mean that right now *I* am folding them and explained why. Once I saw that *you* play it I assumed I was wrong to fold them and was hoping for an explanation as of why it is right to play them, which I got (since I don't like to copy people without knowing why).

I just figured that with sets being a 12.5% chance and the huge amount of straights, flushes there wasn't enough value to get in there with *just* a "set draw".

to clarify, i'm not angry or anything. Just really confused. I'm sure i have the lowest vpip of anyone here (about 15%) and I see this hand and def want to play it, even against a raise because a raise normally means AA or such so if I hit a set on a non ace board, I am often good to win a big pot or at least check raise a pot continuation bet and win a decent pot.

On the flop, it is not likely I am up against a set with the way the action goes so I do fear the A high flush draw so the flop call is marginal but obviously a K would be good too as it would be the nuts and a 3 would likely be good as it would complete a gutshot (of course someone could have a wrap) but I have position so if there is a bet and raise to me when the 3 hit, I would fold barring a STRONG read not to.

I just figure I have 4 outs preflop to hit a set and take a pot against someone overplaying a big pair.

stone... i think he was mainly talking to me re the pf fold.

ok, i understand the flop-a-set value (and i often advocate it -- even in O8). the thing is that it was raised twice already, and you don't close the action. you need to hit your set AND have a janky board AND have someone else like their second best hand/draw. too many ANDs for me to call two raises -- even small ones. i think there's a case for dropping it.

but ok, there's a case for playing it, too. you get to see a flop relatively cheaply with good implied odds... but you whiff and keep playing. that's what makes this hand dangerous, imho.

it seems like your game was donktastic, so i'll trust your judgment.

that being said, as a general rule, i think you're thinking of it backwards. i think you want to have a set of kings and the flush draw as a backup so that you can drive the betting. i don't think the flush draw should really be your main aim.

one thing that is clear to me at the 25s and 50s (and even some 100 tables) is that people will chase the nut flush draw often without correct odds. as such, i don't think it's a good idea to chase a K-high flopped flush draw in a multiway pot as a general rule. i mean, you love these guys precisely because they will chase their flushes without proper odds (i realize that this villain also had a gutter, but all those outs can't be seen as all clean). you can't pay them off by loving your K-high flush.

don't get me wrong, K-high flushes are great if you're HU or maybe three-way when you see the flop, but you had four see the flop and three the turn. the chance that the suited A is out there is high enough to warrant caution, imho.

as for the min-raising and re-raising stuff, i see it ALL the time in plo8. i've seen clowns keep minraising between themselves a few times, i've also seen an EP AAxx hand pot it after the reraise, etc. each time i curse myself for calling with a marginal hand. maybe this doesn't happen in these games or the games you normally play, but the fact that the initial raiser is still to act is precisely why i originally said that i would have folded pf.

ok, best hope is against two pairs of aces (relatively rare) with janky sidecards. even if they have your flushes covered, you're ahead -- this is surprising to me. if they have decent side cards, it's a wash. against AA and QQ, you're a bit of a dog. against AA and a coordinated hand, it's starting to get ugly, and if your K outs aren't clean, you're hatin' life. over a range of villains hands, i would say that this is ev neutral to negative more often than not. your only hope is the AA v AA situation.

as bri originally said, i think that this is a hand that you want to see a flop cheaply with and hope to flop top set and a flush draw or backdoor flush draw. my original point was that he didn't really know how much money he was going to have to put in the pot. hey, if they're passive, great -- play it, but there are plenty of games in which that pot gets repopped. at about $3 pf, i think that seeing the flop starts getting close to ev neutral or ev negative in a multiway pot (i.e., he has to flop a set that's good with a second best hand who likes his hand in order to make a healthy return).

you're welcome to disagree, but i think you're giving up substantial BBs if you at least don't think that this call is worth consideration. i think that this situation is much more subtle than it seems at first. also note that the call i am referring to is not the initial call, but the call of the raise and reraise. also note that i think KK33 is fine to play preflop... just marginal in this specific situation.

AA v AA with janky sides and no flushes

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516508
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ah ac 2d 7s - ad as 4h 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 245861 49.17 254139 50.83 0 0.00 0.492
7s Ac 2d Ah 43176 8.64 290680 58.14 166144 33.23 0.252
As 9c Ad 4h 44819 8.96 289037 57.81 166144 33.23 0.256

AA v AA with janky sides and one flush covered

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516510
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - ah as 4d 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 226598 45.32 273402 54.68 0 0.00 0.453
7s Ac Ad 2d 63479 12.70 270904 54.18 165617 33.12 0.293
As 9c 4d Ah 44306 8.86 290077 58.02 165617 33.12 0.254

AA v AA with janky sides and one flush covered and other player has a clean flush draw

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516515
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - ah as 4s 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 210078 42.02 289922 57.98 0 0.00 0.420
7s Ac Ad 2d 68914 13.78 282949 56.59 148137 29.63 0.286
As 4s 9c Ah 72871 14.57 278992 55.80 148137 29.63 0.294

AA v AA with janky sides and both flushes covered

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516512
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - ah as 4h 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 187595 37.52 312405 62.48 0 0.00 0.375
7s Ac Ad 2d 72194 14.44 261662 52.33 166144 33.23 0.311
As 9c Ah 4h 74067 14.81 259789 51.96 166144 33.23 0.314

AA v AA with decent sides and both flushes covered

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516526
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac td js - ah as 8h 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 168967 33.79 331033 66.21 0 0.00 0.338
Js Ac Ad Td 90633 18.13 270335 54.07 139032 27.81 0.320
As 9c Ah 8h 101368 20.27 259600 51.92 139032 27.81 0.342

AA v QQ with janky sides and one flush covered and villain with an open flush

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516519
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - qh qs 4s 9c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 155438 31.09 344562 68.91 0 0.00 0.311
7s Ac Ad 2d 206331 41.27 293669 58.73 0 0.00 0.413
Qs 4s 9c Qh 138231 27.65 361769 72.35 0 0.00 0.276

AA with janky sides and 89JTss and one flush covered

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516516
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - 8h 9s ts jc
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 141530 28.31 358470 71.69 0 0.00 0.283
7s Ac Ad 2d 176732 35.35 323268 64.65 0 0.00 0.353
Ts 9s Jc 8h 181738 36.35 318262 63.65 0 0.00 0.363

AA with janky sides and TJQKss and one flush covered

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516518
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ad ac 2d 7s - qh ks ts jc
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 130475 26.09 369525 73.91 0 0.00 0.261
7s Ac Ad 2d 216109 43.22 283891 56.78 0 0.00 0.432
Ks Ts Jc Qh 153416 30.68 346584 69.32 0 0.00 0.307

HU versus janky AA

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1516642
pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh kd 3h 3d - ah as 2d 7c
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd 3d Kh 3h 205294 41.06 294706 58.94 0 0.00 0.411
As 7c 2d Ah 294706 58.94 205294 41.06 0 0.00 0.589