Actually, this post is an installment on the way to a return to my CB question of a while ago, which, despite the efforts of several top players here, is still rather unclear to me... so, I thought I might try a new angle for getting there.

So, my question here is what hands one actually should be willing to get in more than 10% of stack with PF.

As I understand it, two groups of hands are fairly clear: 1) Any AA (double-suited and other extras notwithstanding), 2) JT89 (suited bonuses also allowed).

So, my first question would be: How close is the race if we start throwing in hands like 789T or 9TJQ? Those hands, it would seem to me, really can't be far off from JT89, right?

Anyhow, my first conclusion is this (pending critique): With any AA or with JT89, given the opportunity to go so far even as to move in, you really need to--e.g., you raise in LP with one of those, EP re-raises pot. Best play imo: Re-pot it on JT89 or any AA.

But the next question is what the kind of "second tier" hands are where you might make your pot-sized raise in LP but, rather than re-potting, you just flat call the big EP raise. I'm guessing that 789T and 9TJQ belong to that group (?). Any other wraps?

Ok, now here are some other ones where it makes sense to me: Two big pairs, like KKQQ (double- or even single suited is a bonus here), KKJJ, QQJJ, possibly even JJTT (? actually, the TT pairs I'm not at all sure about. JJTT is probably a better limp hand, I'm guessing?).

My thinking on these hands is this: Should you get re-raised, you can call and potentially trap AA or 89TJ. If it's, say, a 1/2 game with full stacks. You have 4 limpers to you plus BB and SB, then potting it should be about $15. Is re-potting then $45 in EP? Hmmm... this all seems rather dangerous, but, if you have a very aggressive AA player, you have two shots here at top set. Well, since it's 7.5:1 to hit one set, it should be 3.25:1 with an Omaha hand having 2 shots at it. So, if you can stack AA (or 89TJ), then you do have the implied odds for hitting.

Hence, those hands also seem to me to be candidates for getting in fairly deep PF.

Brief conclusion: AA and 89TJ are good all-in hands. 789T, 9TJQ, (any others? maybe also something like JJT9?) and double big pairs (JJ-KK) might be worth adding to the raising mix, but one should see a flop before deciding how much further to go with them...???

Ais,

There is, IMO, one complicating factor and that is the following. In PLO, it is a rather bad situation to invest 20% of your stack preflop and then miss the flop. Even with a top hand you want to avoid this. So you either see a flop relatively cheap or, as in the case with AA, you try to get in the larger part of your stack. Getting in 30% preflop is horrible, especially when it is no HU.

Also, repotting with 89TJ or similar hands is, IMO, not a decision that you make solely on hand strength. If you think your opponent has AA, there is really no point in repotting since that will only help him to get in preflop, which is precisely what you want to avoid.

If your question is about hand strength preflop, then yes, hands like TJQK are very strong, but whether you should raise/reraise them depends on a lot of factors. Do you want to play for more than 10% of your stack with this hand? Maybe, maybe not. Whether you want that or not is not a function of "how good a hand is TJQK" but mainly of what you think your opponent has and how likely he is to pay you. Against an opponent who will overplay AA I might call for 10% of my stack with rags... Similarly, with AA it is often more important to disguise your hand than to get a lot of money in.

i would say the short answer is none. aim to play plo and plo8 post flop.

if you get reraised when you raise from LP, it's not a crime to call. how you play after that is very much determined by a large number of contextual variables (pot-size, # in pot, flop, nature of players in pot, table image, etc.) that make it too hard to have a blanket solution.

just my 2 cents... ymmv.

One additional nuance that might be considered in this raise/re-raise strategy I'm seeing here:

Let's say you're in LP with AA72 not double-suited. So, you raise and get a re-raise, and I'm suggesting that it's best to go ahead and push in that situation. Well, this in a sense tips your hand in that if you don't re-raise there, they should in theory know you don't have AA.

What one might consider is on real monster AA hands just flat calling rather than potting (with trappy intention). Monster AA hands I'd call double-suited with both other cards T or better, giving both flush draws in addition to broadway straights on top-heavy boards. Also AA double-suited and together with another pair JJ-KK.

What that would protect against is a strong EP re-raiser (with something like 89TJ) automatically assuming that a flat call from LP means no AA, hence allowing a bluff on any A-high flop. If you try to trap on AA hands with a lot of draws over and above top set, then that becomes a dangerous move for an EP re-raiser.

this is a failed example of the flop bet with marginal holding i was talking about. sig had a pair and a gutter and pushed into a pf aggressor who pretty obviously had AA. oops, the AA hand had the flush draw, too. but think about it, can the AA hand call here for about $900 here without the flush draw?

i'm not sure if this makes my point well... i can look for better examples later this week if necessary (packing for a move now).

***** Hand History for Game 3552991427 *****
$2000 PL Omaha - Tuesday, February 14, 10:54:18 EDT 2006
Table Table 65342 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: sigminator11 ( $1980 )
Seat 3: eightsand ( $3445 )
Seat 6: Houstonwgap ( $0 )
Seat 8: jamieposner ( $1840 )
Seat 5: SiHuynh ( $591 )
Seat 10: super_puper ( $2861 )
Seat 9: grmpf ( $2982 )
Seat 7: Irukandji187 ( $1825 )
Seat 2: ijsj2003 ( $1559 )
Seat 4: DanTheMan226 ( $665 )
sigminator11 posts small blind [$10].
ijsj2003 posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
eightsand folds.
DanTheMan226 folds.
SiHuynh folds.
Irukandji187 raises [$70].
jamieposner folds.
grmpf folds.
super_puper raises [$240].
sigminator11 calls [$230].
ijsj2003 folds.
Irukandji187 raises [$910].
super_puper folds.
sigminator11 calls [$740].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 7d, 5h ]
sigminator11 is all-In.
Irukandji187 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
sigminator11 shows [ 7s, 8c, Jd, Ts ] a pair of sevens.
Irukandji187 shows [ Qh, Jh, Ah, As ] a pair of aces.
sigminator11 wins $155 from side pot #1 with a pair of sevens.
Irukandji187 wins $3907 from the main pot with a pair of aces.

example of extremely aggressive play that cleaned up outs (e.g., to the flush and maybe toi the boat) with a weak holding and weakish redraws.

***** Hand History for Game 3563464558 *****
$2000 PL Omaha - Thursday, February 16, 04:09:36 EDT 2006
Table Table 64797 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: prime_time7 ( $2181 )
Seat 2: dOOnk ( $1925 )
Seat 3: ijsj2003 ( $1541.50 )
Seat 4: Oban23 ( $2954.30 )
Seat 5: IsUccKAtLife ( $293 )
Seat 7: jessica88 ( $4369.45 )
Seat 9: Trilobite1 ( $2059 )
Seat 8: theaction28 ( $2112.90 )
Seat 6: grmpf ( $1000 )
theaction28 posts small blind [$10].
Trilobite1 posts big blind [$20].
grmpf posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
prime_time7 folds.
dOOnk folds.
ijsj2003 calls [$20].
Oban23 folds.
IsUccKAtLife raises [$40].
grmpf calls [$20].
jessica88 calls [$40].
theaction28 calls [$30].
Trilobite1 calls [$20].
ijsj2003 calls [$20].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, Ts, 3h ]
theaction28 checks.
Trilobite1 checks.
ijsj2003 checks.
IsUccKAtLife checks.
grmpf checks.
jessica88 bets [$225].
theaction28 calls [$225].
Trilobite1 calls [$225].
ijsj2003 raises [$1362].
IsUccKAtLife folds.
grmpf folds.
jessica88 raises [$4075].
theaction28 folds.
Trilobite1 folds.
ijsj2003 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7d ]
jessica88 shows [ 5c, Th, 7s, 8s ] a full house, Sevens full of tens.
ijsj2003 doesn't show [ 4h, 5h, Kd, 6d ] a pair of sevens.
jessica88 wins $2798.50 from side pot #1 with a full house, Sevens full of tens.
jessica88 wins $3690 from the main pot with a full house, Sevens full of tens.

AA set cracked by janky hand (jessica seems to be a winning player). it goes both ways with AA, and this kind of situation does not seem uncommon to me when someone telegraphs AA from EP.

***** Hand History for Game 3563538185 *****
$2000 PL Omaha - Thursday, February 16, 04:49:12 EDT 2006
Table Table 65342 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: tokyosbest ( $4283 )
Seat 5: yukak ( $1722 )
Seat 7: rentsoverdue ( $1855 )
Seat 8: cmsantacruz ( $1961 )
Seat 9: jessica88 ( $5423.35 )
Seat 10: Oban23 ( $2763 )
Seat 2: Trilobite1 ( $2183 )
Seat 6: juan6juan ( $1804 )
Seat 1: Smoula ( $1498.25 )
Seat 3: prime_time7 ( $2158 )
prime_time7 posts small blind [$10].
tokyosbest posts big blind [$20].
jessica88 posts big blind + dead [$30].
** Dealing down cards **
yukak folds.
juan6juan raises [$90].
rentsoverdue folds.
cmsantacruz folds.
jessica88 calls [$70].
Oban23 folds.
Smoula folds.
Trilobite1 folds.
prime_time7 folds.
tokyosbest folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Ad, 3d ]
juan6juan bets [$217].
jessica88 calls [$217].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
juan6juan bets [$651].
jessica88 calls [$651].
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
juan6juan is all-In.
jessica88 calls [$846].
juan6juan shows [ Ah, Jc, 5s, Ac ] a straight, ace to five.
jessica88 shows [ 8c, 2d, 5h, 6s ] a straight, two to six.
jessica88 wins $3645 from the main pot with a straight, two to six.

This thread is becoming pretty unreadable guys