Bad Play, Lucky or Thought Out Call, you make the decision

[piersmajestyk]

Thought I would post a little blind defense hand from today. We'll just preface by saying that I don't believe I have ever laid down my Big Blind to a heads up raise by the Small Blind, it just ain't happening. So I staunchly call with my Q6o. You make the decision on whether I was stupid, lucky or something else on how I played the hand and I will chime in later on my thoughts.



Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
7 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) , , (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3 BB) (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 8c 9c (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qs 6h (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 5 BB.

[MecosKing]

Wow Piers- Interesting hand!

I think id have raised the flop and led here, but thats just me.

Well, i dunno there are alot of ways to look at this hand like there are alot of ways to look at everyhand, and of course hindsight is 20/20....The Check on the turn seems to indicate that he's weak, and your check behind indicates that you are weak too. When the 10 paired and he bet, it means either one of few things- either
(a) He has some sort of a hand that he thinks will win a showdown (unlikely- he'd have bet the turn with any hand to make the spade draw pay)
(b) He knows he cannot win except by betting, so hes takin a stab
(c) he is an idiot, and bets with missed Ace- high hands that almost ALWAYS, if called, are no good, and if they are good, get folded to (people do this all the time)
(d) He might actually be value betting his ace high (some players that claim to be really 'good' say they do this sometimes)

The problem here is just that (c) IMHO, is just too likely- unless he has been raising you up alot from the SB. Idiots do that all the damn time...And at a 3/6 game, i wouldnt exactly put players on a sophisticated play like an ace high value bet...So it seems a contest beteween (c) and (b) with a remote possibility of (a). With a pot that small, i would think (b) is not all that likely...

All in all, i dont mind your call too much with the second nut no pair...its probably a sideways EV move? Its just that the pot is so small, and the ace is so likely that i probably wouldnt have called, unless the guy is LAGgy enough that the only way he'd check the turn to you means that his hand is so bad that he cant even fire one more off at you. As it were, he actually improved on the turn (more or less).

This is another thing i worry about when a LAGgy Blind thief checks it to me - LAGs will often fire with nothin, then when they actually pickup something, they'll go into check/call mode, then bet it when they tihnk its good. How many times have you seen a bluffer jamming a draw and make a shitty pair on turn or river, and check/call it down, when you KNOW he'd have bet if he missed?

So, all this crap taken into consideration, i would probably just say, fuck it the pots too small, and let him have it on the river. But like i said, id have raised the flop and led the turn, and probably either picked up the pot that way, or else won with Qhi if he decided to make the godawful straight chase onna flushie board in a HU pot.

But damn. It feels nice to own someone with a queen high, dont it?

[nolimpin]

[briachek]

[piersmajestyk]

[MecosKing]

Piers--

I completely agree with popping the turn thing. If you can honestly say that youd have popped the turn if he had led again, then hey, fuck all that 'piers is a rock' bullshit. Thats a ballsy play.

You know, i do agree with you about the raise looking like a free card play vs. the call looking like an 'im gonna pop your ass on the turn if you bet into me play'. That happens ALOT to me, and what usually happens is that I check behind because i HATE getting CRed on the turn by some asshole with 3rd pair, and then showing down my AQhigh, and losing a major pot, that didnt have to be major at all. Then because i think hes on a shit hand, i three bet him, then he crying calls me down because hes so invested and gets all happy when his pair of fours wins it. when i check behind and the river comes a brick, the caller invariably fires, and most of the time I call and win enough of the time to make the call profitable. But your point, and if i get it, is that a call often is more likely to buy a free card than a raise on a scary board. Its true, and i think thats a play people should understand.

However, there is also the possibility that you have made a pair! I mean sure theres a flush out, but there are also a couple of wheelhouse cards out there, the type a BB would defend with. I mean after all, most people sittin with you dont look at the 8% VPIP guy and think youlll defend your blinds with 26o. Thats another reason why i think making a play for this pot wouldve been the best move, be it on the flop, or the turn, or somewhere --just because i think you probably have a pretty tight table image, which is a good thing in a case like this because it allows you to steal pretty effectively when you think the other guy doesnt have much.

So, yeah i agree with you that a call on the flop mightve been better than a raise. But, when he checked, i think you shouldve at least bet it, instead of waiting for the river to bring a one of the few cards that most certainly didnt help him, thus allowing you to call with queen high. There is no way an ace high calls a turn bet here, IMHO, unless its the . Its like Stars hand in the limit section, where he has the diamond draw with the gutshot--if the pot is heads up, IMHO, i think you always want to try to win it with your draw, if at all possible, because the chances are your not gonna hit, but HU, i think the chances of hitting a decent draw + the chances of making your opponent muck by showing sufficient aggression are probly well over 50%.

Alls im sayin is, if you dont think the other guy has a hand, and niether do you, but you think you might have him highcarded, then again you might not, your better off betting into him at some point than calling him and seeing whose high card is higher.