A Quote About Low Limit

[Tiburon]

[EscapePlan9]

[Tiburon]

[EscapePlan9]

Perhaps you didn't read Piers response to me, but he AGREED his sticky was not the most profitable way to win low-limit poker! He specifically stated in his sticky it was for inexperienced players lacking in post-flop skills. So was I pissing on Piers? Not at all. I disagreed it was the most profitable way to play low-limit... and he agreed with me. You misinterpretted the situation drastically.

About Thomas Keller... he plays BIG limit games. Think of him as a future Tiburon. Someone who complains about the loose play and tries to sound justified in it, even though the math shows him wrong. You and Keller are excellent players by all means - I just think it's quite clear you do not properly adapt to loose games.


Great. When I come up to the same situation 100 times and can come out up $1150 more than I can otherwise, I'll tell you all about it.


Are you really that thick-headed? You just admitted... well... okay you do win more in the long-run in these games...

And that's been the point all along!

you may be a favorite over 7 random hands with AA in an 8-way pot, but are you THE favorite

Yes, you are still the favorite. You still have a better chance of winning than all the other players. And that means you make money from all of them.

I prefer to play games where favorites win more than they lose.

Re-read what you just said. Favorites by definition win more than they lose... that's why they're favorites!

And plus, you truly overemphasize how loose these games are. These are not play-money loose games. Even at PP's .5/1 it's incredibly rare to have even FIVE players staying on the TURN. On the river there's usually four or less. You have to specifically find the absolute loosest tables for anything higher. Really, look over any post of mine where I won a huge pot... how many people stayed in on the turn and river? And then remember... most of the pots are not that enormous.

especially in the light of your posts about calling down with middle or bottom pair to the river

You oversimplify the situations so much. Perhaps you completely ignore the pot odds when it's a large pot, but when you only need a 6% chance to win, it's okay to call with middle pair on the river. Combine that with having reads on the players. Re-read where I called down with middle pair and check what my reads were. Then add to that I only needed a 6% chance of winning. Against a maniac and a calling station, it certainly was worth it.

I assume you didn't read the article in entirety and instead only read the paragraph I cut out. But I could be wrong.

[Tiburon]

[Xaston]

[Tiburon]

[TightWad]

[TightWad]

[Tiburon]

[Nortonesque]

Schooling may decrease your EV on later streets, but the fact that they're in the hand in the first place means that your initial EV is much larger to begin with. There's a reason SSHE has you raising the BB with AJs.

Where is this quote from BTW?

[Tiburon]

Keller did a chat on ESPN's SportsNation Chat I believe just today...You need an Insider subscription to read the whole thing.

[EscapePlan9]

[EscapePlan9]

[EscapePlan9]

Along with what Norton said... your pre-flop EV is huge! 6 people calling your raise or re-raise with AA is great! There will be so much dead money in the hand (since some of them fold by the turn, and more fold on the turn).

A more realistic example of what happens with AA in multi-way pots:

Hand 2 (JJ) raised PF
I re-raised and we ended up with 5-to-the-flop. That's 15 SBs.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.9095 % 43.89% 00.02% { AdAs }
Hand 2: 13.0351 % 13.01% 00.02% { JdJh }
Hand 3: 16.4948 % 16.47% 00.02% { 8h5h }
Hand 4: 14.7954 % 14.33% 00.47% { Tc9c }
Hand 5: 11.7651 % 11.30% 00.47% { KsTs }

-
Then the flop:

Board: 2d 9h 7c
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.9879 % 48.99% 00.00% { AdAs }
Hand 2: 06.3428 % 06.34% 00.00% { JdJh }
Hand 3: 22.9420 % 22.94% 00.00% { 8h5h }
Hand 4: 18.6235 % 17.54% 01.08% { Tc9c }
Hand 5: 03.1039 % 02.02% 01.08% { KsTs }

I got everyone except for Hand 5 (KTs) in for two bets on the flop. 23 SBs. Knowing that KTs would fold, I actually am the favorite on the flop over all the other hands combined.
-
Turn:

Board: 2d 9h 7c 3c

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.0000 % 55.00% 00.00% { AdAs }
Hand 2: 02.5000 % 02.50% 00.00% { JdJh }
Hand 3: 07.5000 % 07.50% 00.00% { 8h5h }
Hand 4: 35.0000 % 35.00% 00.00% { Tc9c }

I got everyone in for 2 BBs on the turn. 19 BBs after the turn.
...
If that turn were any suit other than a club (thanks to Tc9c), my equity would shoot up to 80%. Like I said, many times your turn equity sky-rockets.

And from here you still will win 55% of the time - you win so much money against people who are practically drawing dead (except the pair+flush draw). I also ended up collecting another BB from everyone on the river.