100K hands of 3-6

[TightWad]

Well, I loaded about a weeks worth of hand histories into PT today and discovered that I just tonight passed the 100K hands mark! Christ, I really didn't think I'd be playing 3-6 this long But anyway, I wanna put up some random stats that I've always kinda wondered about, as far as how they compare to others here. I think it would be absolutely NIFTY if some of the other regulars weighed in on how their stats compare. I'm not really gonna go with the standard lot such as VPIP and aggression numbers, because I think there's been enough discussion in the past as to what those numbers mean and where they should be.

Incidentally, all these stats are for full-ring games...so 6-max playing fruitcakes like Mecos and Xaston can feel free to give their thoughts, but with the knowledge that they'll be utterly disregarded.

We'll start with a wierd one: Winrate with AKo. Over the 934 times I've been dealt this CRITICAL limit hand, my winrate is at 0.52BB/hand. I have no idea what this should be at, but I do think it's one of the most important hands in limit hold 'em to learn how to play properly. So how ya'll doin with your slicks?

Let's move right on to winrates (i.e. loss-rates) from the blind positions! I'm at -0.20BB/hand from the big blind, and -0.07BB/hand from the small. I know with absolute certainty that my blind defense has improved greatly as a result of the pierster's posts on the subject...but I still have a bit of a way to go.

Next, I'm interested in "Won $ when saw flop" and "Won $ at showdown." I should use bold-face more often, it's pretty kinky! Anyway, my W$WSF is 38.19% and my W$SD stands at 50.22%. I have no fuckin clue where these should be.

Finally, the section on "First action on Flop after Preflop Raise." I'm including this because I sometimes think I'm a little too hesitant to just check my utterly missed big cards against a large field. I'll just paste the whole table here.

Raise: 9.86
Bet: 56.60
Call: 3.62
Check: 6.22
Check-Raise: 1.29
Fold : 3.59
No flop: 18.85


So, basically just a bunch of random shit that I always kinda wondered about as far as how I stack up against other players. Feel free to post your own numbers or just tear apart mine!

-TW

[Tiburon]

[TightWad]

[Tiburon]

[TightWad]

My WTS is just about the same, but the win is a lot lower. I undoubtedly get a bit too attached.

[Tiburon]

I think it's fate that AK shares initials with Anna Kournikova.

Both look real pretty, but I wouldn't bet too hard on either to win a damn thing.

[KikoSanchez]

[quote="Tiburon"]TW--

Winrate from BB: -0.14 BB/Hand
Winrate from SB: -0.06 BB/Hand
[quote]

Wow Tiburon, how have you lost so little in the blinds? I've only played one PT-compatible site in the past few months and at that I only have 2k hands from, but I was losing .29 BB/hand from BB and .12 from SB. This seems to be losing me a lot of money, what advice can you give me on blind play? Btw, my basic blind play is from SSHE, ie folding to a raise from SB the same as I would to a raise from EP, playing most suited hands and LP hands from SB and calling 1 more bet from BB with anything I'd play from LP. Also, this was the 2/4 at prima, so there wasn't too much blind-on-blind play.

[Tiburon]

As I mentioned previously, I am a highly aggressive player. I defend my blind aggressively, and here are more stats for you:

BB: WtSD: 24.66%, W$SD: 52.80%, PFR: 5.29%, Win% in Position: 23.54%.

I win pots on almost 1/4 of my big blind hands. As the field gets narrower, I play my blind more aggressively. I will bet any draw from the BB, or generally, if I catch ANY part of the flop. I get a lot of pre-showdown folds. You'd be surprised how many people fold to a open bet from a BB (especially at Stars).

SB: WtSD: 37.88%, W$SD: 51.00%, PFR: 5.95%, Win % in Position: 12.36%

The SB has been my weakest position (not my biggest loser, weakest). Early on, I would "come in for half price" a lot more than I should have. I also end up tossing a bet out sometimes only to have it raised and fold. I've since tightened it down to basically playing only hands that SSHE recommends from EP. It's become more of an issue since I play mostly 3/6 with the odd blind structure. I'm VERY TIGHT from the SB lately. My VP$IP from the SB is 18% in the last 2+ months.

[bobby]

[MecosKing]

Whattup T-Dub-

Well, im not on my computer, so i dont have my PT stats available, but i know a few of em off the top of my head...

My Showdowns won % is like 53% i think, and my BB/100 from the BB -0.10...i dont adopt the piers method of defending with 92o either, but i will make a stone bluff against a button thief if the flop comes something like J62 or 783 or if hes a real loose button raiser and i feel like gamblin, ill try to bluff a flop of Axx.

All that notwithstanding though, i think you probalby call off too much with AK no pair alot. The money you make with AK is going to be from when you hit it, not from when you call it through to the river and it miraculously endsup being good. i generally wont call through to the river unless the player im up against is extremely bluffy, or the board is such that i dont beleive he has anything....like if its 225 or somthing like that.

One of the worst mistakes the mizors make is betting at a PF raiser on a board where obviously the PF raiser missed, but where its very likely that the bettor missed also, and that AK high is still the nuts (like those ragged/paierd boards).

Plainly put-- you call too much you testicle!! I consider myself to be somewhat of a calling station number one, and secondly, i play shorthanded which means i am going to have to call alot more often than you will, and my w/sd is still higher! You have either been running inordinately bad, or else you are just calling to damn much!

Every game is not an MK/TW mizefest where you can school my QT high with a QJ call on the river on an AK board!

As for the blind defense numbers, i dunno- BB defense is largely a matter of opinion and intuition, and all that. As for the SB, i can tellya that i think Tib is pretty much correct on SB play- i play pretty damn tight from the SB and wont call unless i have a hand that i could legitimately play from MP (QJ maybe) or if the pot ius multi way, decent sooted connectors...and i wont call a button raise from the SB with a hand unless its a legitimate MP playing hand probably.

The 'discount' your getting from the SB, esp at 3/6 is not a big one, and also, unlike the BB where you know youll be HU with the button if the SB folds thus increasing your odds to win the pot, if you call with an iffy hand from the SB you are giving the BB 5:1 on his money which is often going to cause him to call, thus futher decreasing your chances of winning the pot, especially if you have a not that great holding in the worst position.

The SB is a shitty place to be, and I am a firm beleiver that, totally unlike the BB, tight is right from the SB.

Theres my 2c - hope you enjoyed it!

[piersmajestyk]

I concur wholeheartedly with TIB and MK about the small blind stuff. In my opinion unless you have a hand that you would raise with UTG then it probably should be mucked unless of course there are a shitload of limpers then you can gambool with alot of shit but with only 1 or two people entering when it gets to you fold the VAST majority of your hands and I don't think you will be unhappy. Since I had to reinstall PT twice in the last month I don't have my big dbase numbers but I remember that my SB number was very low in regard to BB/100 lost. Maybe (-0.06) or something like that. I think if you have a loss of less then -0.22 from the BB you are doing ok, higher than that you need to do some adjusting.

[TightWad]

Mecos: I am sadly forced to agree with your comments on my tendency to make fearless and generally misguided ace-high call-downs. It is a point of great personal shame, and I do in fact often yell at myself after the fact...maybe one of these days I'll finally be able to stop making them.

As far as the SB play, yeah I definitely have the tendency to be a bit too loose from there. But I also think that I occasionally gain some value from limping in on shorthanded pots where I can occasionally either steal on the flop or outplay my small field of opponents. Of course, sometimes I try a bit too hard and just start spewing. I'm fairly certain you've all seen some of my spews, so you know it's a thing to behold!

One other point I'd like to mention. Often while I'm playing, I check my stats for the session using party's stat thing; this is mainly to make sure my VP$IP hasn't reached critical failure levels. But I also notice that my "Hands won" percentage is almost invariably in the 12-13% range, and since I'm almost always at a full table, this means I generally win slightly more than my fair share. Of course, we all know that trying to win every pot is a sure way to go broke, but nevertheless, I feel that when I'm playing well, these extra pots help somewhat to compensate for my kinda low W$SD. I think that as long as it doesn't turn into a pride thing where my goal becomes to just try and run over a table, this can be an effective style...though not necessarily any moreso than a tighter one that wins fewer hands but spews off less chip in between.

I didn't mention my VP$IP in my original post...if anyone is curious, it's around 21%. I realize that a lot of you will tell me to cut back for my own good, but the problem is that I've tried playing a tighter game and for some reason or another, I just can't do it. I think my rather unimpressive winrate with AKo kinda goes to show that. As much as it shames me to admit it, my post-flop play just simply isn't as good as many of the others on this board, so I don't really think I could post a solid winrate by only playing the premium hands. I also think that most of the holes in my postflop play relate more to discipline than to reading skills or fundamental knowledge...so the good news is that if I can ever start consistantly folding ace-high, maybe I can also cut out all that garbage I've been known to boldly enter the pot with!

-TW

[CFlannagan]

Winrate with AKo

Even though my sample size is TINY, TINY, TINY (4k), I don't care.. I'm gonna post anyway BTW, my BB/100H is 3.76.

My AKo BB/100H is 2.21BB/100H, with 43 occurences.

winrates (i.e. loss-rates) from the blind positions!

BB Won/Hand in SB position: -0.03
BB Won/Hand in BB position: -0.05

"Won $ when saw flop" and "Won $ at showdown."

W$SF is 29.87%
W$SD is 47.41%

"First action on Flop after Preflop Raise."

Raise: 17.65%
Bet: 58.04%
Call: 10.20%
Check: 7.84%
Check/Raise: 0.78%
Fold: 2.35%
No Flop/No Action: 3.14%

(edit: found the last bunch of stats, thanks TW! )

[TightWad]

Bobbster, thanks for the welcome back! I was never really gone, I just entered a bit on an antisocial lurker mode for about a week there. Women are definitely -EV...and I'm starting to wonder a bit about alcohol! Not enough to make me stop drinkin, of course

After reading yours and others posts and accepting that almost everyone appears to be leaving me in the dust with AK, I decided to check my old 2-4 numbers from when I first went pro. My overall winrate at 2-4 is lower, so thankfully I do appear to have improved since then...BUT, my AK numbers are better!

AKo is 0.77 as opposed to 0.52 at 3-6
AKs is 1.07 as opposed to 0.58 at 3-6

So it would seem that while many aspects of my game have improved over the past 6 months, I've completely forgotten how to play AK But then again, this sorta makes sense. When I first went pro, I was still relatively inexperienced at limit (having squandered most of the previous two years playing NL cash games and SNGs). I had played limit before, but that was almost 3 years ago when I first started. So being still sort of a rookie, I played my AK in a rather textbook fashion. Sure, I'd toss out continuation bets, but I was mainly playing to hit TPTK. Of course, if I did hit TPTK, there was pretty much no way in hell I was letting it go! Now, I'm a bit more experienced so I can OCCASIONALLY bring myself to fold my hand to one of those devious turn raises...BUT, as our resident goat-fucker Mecos pointed out, I seem to have lost the ability to fold it unimproved.

I suppose every once in a while, it'd do all of us good to take a step back and evaluate how far our game has come...and I'm pretty sure I can't be the only one that, in doing so, is faced with the sad reality that while many bad things have improved upon, some good things have been lost or forgotten. I'm gonna make it my personal goal to drag this biotch of a hand back into more respectable winning territory! Maybe I'll do pushups, or run laps, or drink a shot of whiskey every time I make a stupid calldown with it. Yeah, I'm likin the sound of that!

EDIT: One more thing I want to mention on the AK front. While I think some players rely too much on statistics, I think this is a good example of how seeing cold hard numbers can force me to objectively analyze my game. At the times that I make bad call downs with TPTK or ace-high, I can rationalize and play the ol' "Well I only had to be right x% of the time game"...while there's sometimes merit to that, PT forces me to accept that I most definitely am calling down far too much and that something has to be done about it. I wasn't initially sure how productive this thread would be, but now I can see that it has the potential to really help me fix some serious leaks in my game. Thanks, guys!

-TW

[TightWad]