NIHAN! No real content.

[TightWad]

So I just sat my arse down on a good ol' hoppin 3-6 table, and posted a blind on the cut-off. I was dealt the power 74o...and the fools allow me to check! Right up until the SB raises, everyone and their great-uncle calls, and I'm like "Shit, 14:1 odds, I'd be nuts not to play this powerful double-gapper!" My GOD, if you had only been their for the post-hand discussion!

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: TW is CO with , . TW posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, TW (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, TW calls.

Flop: (15 SB) , , (7 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 raises, TW 3-bets, SB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, TW bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (17.50 BB) (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, TW bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has Kc 2c (two pair, fours and twos).
MP2 has 9h 9c (two pair, nines and fours).
MP3 has Jc Js (two pair, jacks and fours).
TW has 7s 4d (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: TW wins 21.50 BB.

BADDA-PHUCKING-BING! Feel free to call me stupid on my preflop call, but before doing so, note that (1) I had 14:1 odds, and (2) I had FANTASTIC position to trap the whole field for bets since the pre-flop raiser was the SB. I was a bit disappointed that he checked, but still...by the way, does anyone think I should've just called on the flop and raised the turn? Mighta been better in hindsight, but this pot was getting big fast and I wanted to do what I could to protect it (at least from weak draws, I know I'm not knocking out a flush or open-ender draw)...still, anyone think I should've waited and let 'em call on the flop, since I could then ideally get to charge the callers 2 bets cold on the turn?

-TW

[wolvish]

I probably would have played it exactly the same. There's no reason to wait for the turn when you've got that much action. Also, you need to protect against that flush draw. In NL, it would be a little different. But in limit, whenever I have the best hand I put in as much as possible, especially against three players.

[EscapePlan9]

It makes no sense to "protect against the flush draw" in limit. No matter what you are charge them, they will continue. In nearly 100% of the cases they have the odds to chase a flush.

[MecosKing]

Protecting against draws doesnt always mean making it so that they are incorrect to call. It simply means betting when your the favorite and making the draws pay to play. And incidentally, getting a raise off on the turn into a non-nut flush draw on a paired board is often enough to get them out- at least ill often get out of a pot in that case.

BTW- tw- NIHAN SAH!

[wolvish]

[EscapePlan9]

I specifically stated it makes no sense to bet if you're hoping your bet will chase out someone on a flush draw or OESD. There's many reasons you should be betting, but none of them should be "to chase out flush draws and OESDs". Don't misunderstand me here... I definitely do not advocate keeping pots small to deny people odds. I WANT them to chase their draws when I'm this far ahead! I want all that extra money!

I think TW played it decently. I personally would have gone with a flop call and turn raise. I would call the flop bet-raise for numerous reasons: mostly to not scare away people by having to face 3 bets cold and to disguise the strength of my hand. By disguising the strength of my hand the flop might end up 3-bet or capped anyway. And plus, it'd encourage the overpairs to bet the turn allowing me to raise. With a table this loose, most of them will call you with middling pairs, overpairs, and of course straight or flush draws. That turn raise is simply $$$$

[Nortonesque]

[EscapePlan9]

That's not the only reason you should wait for the turn. If you think there's a good chance you can get an extra BB from players instead of an extra SB from players, that's a big factor.

[MecosKing]

yeah its true, but thats supposing that you actually CAN get those extra BB's from everyone. Something that alot of people that are fans of raising the turn fail to realize is that, guess what? A lot of people will dump alot of hands to a turn raise. I would dump any PP after that sort of action + a turn raise, on a paired board like that in a frickin 9 way pot or whatever that monstrosity was. However, if it just came bet and called to me, i may be more inclined to think that possibly im good.

Lots of people like raising the turn up rather than jamming the flop, but after playing alot of poker, i started to realize that making it multiple bets on the flop in multiway action pots are where the biggest pots are built, because first, you arent forcing people with beaten hands to call 2 big bets, (they will often muck to this), and secondly, you are building a huge pot on the cheap street where people are more inclined to put bets in, thus causing them to chase pretty thin draws on thru ther turn, and make river crying calls because of the huge pot size (K2 and 99 are good examples)

When you are as far ahead as TW was in this pot, you need to build that pot up as much as you can on the flop, because that keeps everyone wanting to call later on. THEN if you can get a turn raise off, go ahead and do it, because the pot is big enough now that youd like to protect it against even thin draws, and often youll get the bad draws to call 2 BB because of how much you pumped the pot on the flop, which is a HUGE money winner for you obviously. But i think you need to pump this one on the flop, basically because that ultimately causes people who are way behind to stay in anyway.

As a sidenote, in the spirit of the NIHAN thread, here is a NIHAN:

Dealt to AKsoGay (A raising hand from the CO if ever there was one!)
Mydayjob folds.
Mydayjob: lol
royalways folds.
BucephalusII folds.
ClammySosa folds.
j2150 folds.
AKsoGay raises [$6].
jefftezzie folds.
Hearts4 raises [$9]. (Button wants to dance)
genius005ca folds.
DartManDart folds.

AKsoGay raises [$6]. (GOTTA cap this one!)
Hearts4 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** (woot!)
AKsoGay bets [$3].
Hearts4 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn **
AKsoGay bets [$6].
Hearts4 raises [$12].
AKsoGay raises [$12].
Hearts4 raises [$12].
AKsoGay calls [$6]. (cap on the turn? Im thinking set, obviously- in retrospect this was a stupid hand to put him on, but i didnt even NOTICE the straight on the board because of the flush)
** Dealing River ** (This scared me at the time- stupid of me, i missed lots of bets)
AKsoGay checks.
Hearts4 bets [$6].
AKsoGay: great
AKsoGay calls [$6].
Hearts4 shows a straight, ten to ace. (HAHA! NIHAN SENDIT!)
AKsoGay shows a flush, ace high.
AKsoGay wins $91 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

[TightWad]

Like I said in my post, I know I'm not folding a flush or OESD. But since the pot is getting so large, I feel I should at least try to protect it from weak draw. There are 18 SBs in the pot when it gets to me, and there will be 20 and two bets to call if I just call. So 10:1 to the next person. At this point, the pot is clearly gonna be huge, I feel like I have to do everything I can to protect myself, so if I can up it to 3 bets and get a gutter like 87 or a pocket pair to fold, I'm more than happy to. Sure, either hand would make a mistake to draw for 2 bets on a paired board with a flush draw, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do it...and I think that this is sort of the type of "reverse-implied odds" situation where I'm better served to have these weak draws fold rather than let them call and potentially beat my hand for a big pot.

Of course, if I waited till the turn, I probably would get the opportunity to raise and face most of the field with calling 2 big bets cold, which obviously gives my hand more protection. But at the time, I felt my best move was to 3-bet the flop in order to get more money in when I'm almost sure my hand is good, and to try to at least knock out a few draws which are weak, but still live against me.

EDIT : I also agree with Mecos's point, that by making the pot big on the flop, I might get people who are drawing very thin (or dead) to get stubborn and stay in.

-TW

[Nortonesque]

[EscapePlan9]

I'm not talking about raising the turn to protect your hand. I'm talking about raising the turn to get more money in.

With all that said, I'm not sure if the flop 3-bet or turn 2-bet (I doubt it'd be bet-raise again with 3-bet or cap on flop)) would be better. The turn opens open even more draws, so more people would be likely to call. The flop 3-bet could have chased out someone with just a backdoor flush draw - but really, backdoor flush draws only come in 3% of the time, so it isn't a huge worry. So I could keep in someone who would have folded on the flop, but called any amount of bets on the turn.

I'm not saying I always would call the flop and raise the turn here, just that I'm more apt to consider doing it when it goes bet-raise to me on the flop when I have a monster.

Perhaps TW played it best. He had a huge equity edge on the flop, and even if a flush draw hit he can boat up. I'm not saying he played it wrong. And I don't know if the turn raise would really be any more profitable because less people may call (or more because the pot is large and there's more draws).

[MecosKing]

Well, since this started out as the NIHAN thread, i am going to go ahead and say that it is now officially the NIHAN thread where we should post all our NIHANS! Insid every good player there lies a godawful mizor that makes a bad move once innawhile and gets there, to the chagrin of the asembled multitudes!

Okay, well, maybe not- whatever. Maybe im just a GAM. Ah well... !

Well, i had a very VERY NIHAN tonight against this dood i was playing 3 handed with. He had just sat down at the table, and i really felt like putting him to the test. Heres how the hand went down:

Dealt to AKsoGay ]
BuckMoe folds.
AKsoGay raises [$15].
tony683 calls [$10].
** Dealing Flop **
AKsoGay bets [$10].
tony683 calls [$10].
** Dealing Turn **
AKsoGay bets [$20].
tony683 raises [$40].
AKsoGay raises [$40].
tony683 raises [$40].
AKsoGay calls [$20].
** Dealing River **
AKsoGay bets [$20].
tony683 calls [$20].
AKsoGay shows a flush, ace high.
tony683 doesn't show ] two pairs, aces and nines.
AKsoGay wins $259 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

Man did i get flamed for this one! he was literally all over my ass for the rest of the session! What can you say to this but...NIHAN SAH!

There was a method to my madness here i think-- i thought he was bluffing the ace- yeah thats it, so i three bet him, and when he fourbet me i figured, okay, hes probly got a 9, so ill just call for my flushdraw. And there it was! Hah!!!

He bitched and bitched, and i explained to him that he overplayed his AJ and should have mucked it to my threebet. I also told him that his penis was extremely small, to the point of being ridiculous, and that i think i probably made some rather distasteful insinuations with regard to forcible sexual relations of the avuncular nature.

(avuncular meaning 'of or relating to an uncle or uncle-like')

[EscapePlan9]

On the issue of turn raising... I find it best in smaller pots, such as three-way or heads-up ones. For instance, you're in the BB with 77. Loose limper limps in EP, MP raises and is only called by the limper and you. The flop comes 67K rainbow. You bet out, loose limper folds, MP re-raises.

You have a HUGE equity edge on the flop, but that doesn't always mean you should 3-bet here. When you 3-bet the flop heads-up against the PFR with a K showing, that usually slows down the PFR with his AK or KQ or whatever. With the 77 I usually would call the re-raise, then check-raise the turn and lead the river. That way I gain an extra BB instead of an extra SB (assuming he calls you down to the river in both cases).

Another benefit of turn check-raising is it gives "check protection". That is, when you really need to improve, it makes some people less likely to continue betting. They may check behind out of fear of another CR.

[Nortonesque]

Yeah, that's pretty much the standard tactic headsup in a small pot with a hand that doesn't need protection. Against a very aggressive opponent one might also consider leading the turn hoping to get raised again.