SH LHE playing the 4-flush

[Kuso]

Four-flushes are definitely my nemesis in SH LHE... it seems like they hit all the freaking time when I flop a flush. I've had mixed results with bluffing, check-calling, and check-fiolding Anyway, I am wondering how you all deal with it.

Let me give some situations I find myself in and what I usually do. Please feel free to add your own commentary for each situation. Please state the level you play at (I play at .5/1 at Party).

If you have a card of the suit, what level do you want to bet/raise, what level to check-call, what level to check/fold?
Against 1 or 2 other opponents
I used to bet out with any broadway card, but I got burned on this with a raise or CR so often that I've been reconsidering this. As it seems like anyone with an A, K, or Q of the suit will chase the flush, so my T or J is usually not good -- although sometimes it is. As such, my current thought is to value bet with A or K, check call with 9-Q, and check-fold with anything 8 or lower unless bettor is a known bluffer. This last one strikes me as a bit weak-tight... your thoughts? Maybe check-call with any card of the suit?

Against 3+ opponents
I only value bet with the A and K, and I check call with other broadway cards. I might make a crying call if I close the action with an 8 or 9. I check fold if I don't have the suit. Again, weak-tight? Other alternatives?

If you don't have a card of the suit, but a decent holding, what do you do?
This is really confusing for me. I've had sets and top 2pr be undermined by these 4-flushes. The amazing thing, though, is that people will bet into me, I make the crying call, and they only have something like TPTK!?! This really makes me not want to fold with 2pr or better -- maybe a check-call. Thoughts? Am I just spewing chips?

I check-fold to 2+ opponents. Too weak?

How do you push people off hands when there is a four-flush on the board?
I've taken to check-raising the river sometimes when the four-flush hits and I don't have one of the suit (e.g., like the 2pr or set mentioned above). Interestingly, the weak-tight players AND the aggro players typically fold. The CSs do what they do best -- call.

How do you protect a weakish made flush (e.g., 7-high or 9-high -- BB or SB material) on the flop or turn?
When I flop a weak flush, I've been betting out to try to protect my hand, but this seems futile. As I mentioned before, it seems like anyone with A, K, or Q of the suit are willing to chase. Interestingly, they usually have the proper odds (esp. the A). Should I try to CR or something? Or do I want it to be a family pot and hope I dodge the four-flush bullet?

Any and all advice is appreciated.

[Kuso]

Geez, people... this is a good thread. No comments? WTF?

OK, here's a question... how often should this be called? My thought is almost never, but some people clearly see the need to call down. My reasoning is that anyone with a big heart is going to try to turn the four-flush. Furthermore, a pure bluff (all that Hero beats here) is a really marginal EV move for MP. Thoughts?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG calls, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) , , (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

Turn: (5 BB) (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[ihategnomes]

Well I can say this, if its HU on the river and it completes a 4 flush on the river and I am first to act I will always bet, better known as the Clarkmeister theorem. Also if I had an overpair its not such a big deal, but if I have a set I am calling down. These are not static statements, players in the pot and what not will change my decision given various situations.

I dont think you should try to check-raise smallish made flushes. The chance that it checks behind is possible so I generally bet out. Sometimes people raise with 2 pair or overpairs as well beefing up the pot and trying to get information on who as the flush.

[Kuso]

[Ojingo]

What is the Clarkmeister Theorem?

[Kuso]

[Ojingo]

The statement you quote is indeed informative and it did catch my attention. However, it can't possibly be classified as a theorem. A theorem is a statement about a mathematical situation which is true or false. What gnomes describes is at best a betting strategy.

So my question is: from the discussion it seems to me that there is a theorem, showing that a certain betting strategy is +EV, or maybe even maximal EV. What is the precise form of this theorem and how is it proved.

[ihategnomes]

I am dyslexic, my thought process to typing is a bit off, I can stop posting if it bothers you.

[ihategnomes]

[Kuso]

[Kuso]

[ihategnomes]

[Xaston]

Ewwww. If you want to continue with the hand, raising the turn, IMO, is unquestionably better than call call.

If he 3 bets, you know for sure you're drawing dead so you can just fold. You lost two bets (same as calling down).

If he has a medium heart, he folds the best hand (+6BB!!!!) or he calls and checks the river. You lose two bets.

If he doesn't have a heart and he for some reason decides to call, you protect your hand. If he has you beat, but not with a flush, again you can very likely win the pot.

I don't like the river call. The board just made a 4 straight in addition to the four flush. There are now even less hands you beat.

[Ojingo]

[MecosKing]