This one stung

[Aisthesis]

On this one, I wonder whether the idea that bri and kuso have been promoting about waiting on a blank turn might have been better.

A few comments in advance: Some may wonder about my even playing this hand, but I feel like I have been underestimating the value of TT and hence thought I'd give it a try. Then the raise comes. Well, the raiser raises 20% of his hands on the small sample I've got. This was the first time I've seen him, so we're not talking about a very large amount of data, but it was clear to me that he's a very loose raiser and also likely to follow up with a strong CB. So, I was essentially already planning a check-raise if I liked the flop.

Anyhow, here's the hand:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (9 handed)

MP1 ($251.25)
MP2 ($159.40)
MP3 ($219.75)
CO ($95.50)
Button ($67)
SB ($63.10)
BB ($272.70)
Hero ($276.25)
UTG+1 ($261.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9:diamond:, T:spade:, T:club:, 2:diamond:.
Hero calls $2, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $6, MP3 calls $6, 3 folds, BB calls $4, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($25) 8:spade:, Q:spade:, J:diamond: (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $23.75, MP3 calls $23.75, BB calls $23.75, Hero raises to $142.5, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, BB calls $118.75.

Turn: ($357.50) 4:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $127.75 (All-In), BB calls $124.20 (All-In).

River: ($609.45) 5:spade: (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $609.45

Results in white below:
BB has As 9h Js 7d (flush, ace high).
Hero has 9d Ts Tc 2d (straight, queen high).
Outcome: BB wins $605.90. Hero wins $3.55.

I think this hand says quite a bit about this freeroll concern/laying down the nuts (which obviously no one had but me when the money went in).

I am not particularly fond of just flat calling on this flop, but what's unclear is whether it's not better to try and set it up so that full pot is more or less all-in on the turn. The problem that arises the way that I play it is that I no longer have sufficient stack depth to deny any semblance of odds.

The way I play it, he has to call $130 for a chance at $490, so he's getting about 4:1. In actuality, he has 8 outs with 40 unknown cards, so that's right at 4:1. Or exactly the same, from his perspective, with 9 outs and 44 unknown cards.

One alternative might be to mini-raise the flop. Not sure how the other players would respond, but it does give me more leverage on a blank turn and allows me to get away easily if the turn is a spade. I'll have to try an EV calculation on both of those.

Anyhow, I'm inclined to think that the pot-sized check-raise was not the best play here. Anyone agree or disagree?

[Kuso]

well, i think you know what i'm going to say...

check-call the flop (possibly bet, but i don't like to define my hand so much in EP) and pop the safe turn card via a bet or CR.

playing the nut str8 from UTG just sucks.

the observation about the small stacks influencing odds of drawing villains is a good one.

tough one.

[Aisthesis]

I think my preferred line here is check-raising to about $75. That should be enough to get everyone out except the flush draw, allow easy exit on a flush turn (paired turn is going to be tough--I might try betting that again at half-pot-ish, but it's risky), and still give me enough stack-depth to bet the turn strongly.

Well, I intended to do an EV calculation here, but it's complicated doing it for both cases, and I'm almost certain that the $75 works out better. We then go into the turn with a pot of only $200 and a little over $200 in stack-depth. So, with a 4:1 draw, he objectively can't call, and if he does, he loses even more.

I really think the lesson to be learned here is that in these inflated pots, you have to be careful about keeping sufficient stack depth to protect your hand on the turn.

I also think I prefer making a decent raise even on the flop to just flat calling with the nuts. If the turn is a blank (as it will be more often than not), I want as big a pot as possible while still preserving enough stack-depth to bet the turn at full pot or close to it.

[Kuso]

[briachek]

well you know what I'm gonna say - fold this crap preflop even for a limp

seriously, except for a T, you are gonna like very few flops and even if you flop a ten, its often not that strong and second set.

After you see the flop, I actually like the check raise and push on the turn and take your chances. I'm not min raising or raising less. put maximum pressure and hope for a good turn card.

However, the key to playing this hand effectively is........folding preflop and not getting yourself in this situation.

[Aisthesis]

Kuso, I see your point on the possible re-raise from the naked flush but am not entirely sure what I think about that one.

First aspect: It puts me under a lot of pressure since I have a dead end hand and don't want to be freerolling someone.

Second aspect: The way he's playing, I don't think he'd do that. Note that when the first flop bet comes to him, he doesn't know that I have a hand but can put the other stacks essentially all-in with his draw. But he doesn't do it.

Third aspect: If he does do it with the naked flush, or even anything less than 13 outs, I'm still favorite.

Anyhow, against this particular player, I think I already know by the time the action gets back to me that he isn't going to come over the top. Actually, the PF raiser is the only one who I think might do so and who I might conceivably be freerolling (even though he's a LAG). All of the LP callers just look too drawish to me.

I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you that the turn is the best place to make your stand on protecting a made hand. However, I disagree with giving a completely free flop card.

[Kuso]