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Live Poker Forum - Online Poker Forums & Hand Analysis Poker Forum 2006-06-11T01:13:15-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/feed.php?f=24&t=14829&mode 2006-06-11T01:13:15-06:00 2006-06-11T01:13:15-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=127232#p127232 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:13 am


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2006-06-10T04:16:02-06:00 2006-06-10T04:16:02-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=126969#p126969 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:16 am


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2006-06-10T03:53:03-06:00 2006-06-10T03:53:03-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=126962#p126962 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:53 am


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2006-06-10T01:31:24-06:00 2006-06-10T01:31:24-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=126912#p126912 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:31 am


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2006-06-10T00:25:25-06:00 2006-06-10T00:25:25-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=126899#p126899 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]>
In doing so, I came up with a somewhat related question, based on a casino hand I had from a few months ago (2/5 PLO) and which involves being on the other end of minimal stack-depth in huge pot. Here's what basically happened: I'm potting all the way with a set (I'm pretty sure it was top set but can't remember for sure). As this game was very aggro, that also got us to a roughly $900 pot on the river, where the flush card hit, and I had something like $70 left.

With this particular opponent, whom I had noted as major flush-chaser right when the game started, I knew essentially 100% that he had made the flush on the river, but in this $900 pot, I still called the last $65-$70. Good play or bad?

Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:25 am


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2006-06-08T15:49:55-06:00 2006-06-08T15:49:55-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=126350#p126350 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]>
I think 10% is about right, Ais, if there's any possibility at all your oppo holds a draw of some sort. There are some occasions when your hand is so bad and ALL your oppo's range beats you that you even have to fold for that amount, I guess. There's also occasions where you can call down with as little as a tiny pair for a sizeable bet. I think that river play when your hand is very weak is something that's very situational in PLO. If you think TOO deeply about it you'll end up arguing yourself into all sorts of crappy calls, but now and again there comes a time when you have to make your oppo show down a winner when it's possible he could be shoving a missed draw.

Bare in mind that if an opponent has an average or "possibly winning at showdown if you have nothing" hand he'll usually check it down. It's the monsters and the garbage that gets bet on the river in a scrappy pot. I reckon check-calling bluffs is an enormous part of your profit against vaguely decent players who don't stack themselves on garbage hands on the early streets.

Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:49 pm


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2006-06-06T23:10:29-06:00 2006-06-06T23:10:29-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125632#p125632 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]>
But there, too, you get the same effect if you push the rest in with your draw. And the only situation I can think of where you can't do that is if you were the one betting into HIM with the draw, and he just flat called. Otherwise, if they bet, say, $50 into a $50 pot, and you only have $55 left, you can always push the rest.

I have had that happen a few times--like where I have two flush draws and a straight draw on the turn (something like 20 plus outs) but still miss on the river.

That's probably also an argument for betting less than pot in that situation (like half of stack depth perhaps?)--in the hope of getting raised, but if not, you can still at least lay down if you have absolutely nothing.

Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:10 pm


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2006-06-06T22:50:21-06:00 2006-06-06T22:50:21-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125626#p125626 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by GodlikeRoy — Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:50 pm


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2006-06-06T22:21:32-06:00 2006-06-06T22:21:32-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125617#p125617 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:21 pm


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2006-06-06T19:20:30-06:00 2006-06-06T19:20:30-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125544#p125544 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:20 pm


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2006-06-06T19:11:43-06:00 2006-06-06T19:11:43-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125541#p125541 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by stickdude — Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:11 pm


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2006-06-06T18:21:06-06:00 2006-06-06T18:21:06-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125505#p125505 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 pm


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2006-06-06T14:11:39-06:00 2006-06-06T14:11:39-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125389#p125389 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]>
If you're first to act, and there's (say) $20 left to bet into a $150 pot or something, and you've been check-calling all the way, you should still keep the cash back on the turn. If there's a possibility your opponent doesn't have a set (i.e. is betting a big wrap, similar drawing hand to yours etc etc), rather than making a pointless turn shove which is certain to be called (and thus be -EV if you can't even beat A high), you KEEP the $20 to the river and THEN push it, regardless what hits.

If your opponent had a big wrap (presumably with a bigger high card than yours, or a tiny pair on board) there's a good chance he'll fold it. This only needs to happen one tim in 7 for the play to be +EV (pot odds on the bluff) so it's a MUCH better use of your last $20 than pushing it on the turn, when it's basically going in with no fold equity and clearly behind your opponent.

Not a very frequent situation, but using it in the right spot and against the right opponent it'll win you a big pot maybe once or twice a year. You need a spot when an opponent is playing aggressively but not NECESSARILY with a made hand, you need to be first to act, and you need to be up against someone who can fold a total no-hoper like bottom pair (even for a small bet). You also need to have a hand that has absolutely NO equity if you miss (ace high, K high, small pair, something like that) and which is pretty sure to be behind whatever your oppo has even if he's just on primarily a draw. It also helps if you've shown at least SOME aggression at some point (i.e. you bet the flop and got raised, you raised preflop signifying that you might have a high pair etc). It's certainly better than just pushing when you're behind on the turn, as you lose the same amount either way but at least waiting for the river there's a slim chance you can win the whole pot with the worst hand.

You would make an analagous (but slightly different) play with the nut straight on the turn when someone bets into you with almost certainly the same straight - instead of just pushing your last raise in with the nuts, and probably getting a split, you wait for the river then push WHATEVER hits (again, you need to be first to act, one of the rare occasions you want to be OOP in PLO). If a flush or open pair comes you may get your oppo to fold a tying hand (you both still have the nut straight) and thus win the whole pot for the same price you'd have paid on the turn to split it. Of course, if he has a redraw and hit it, you now look stupid for betting into him and losing BUT a) you'd have lost the money anyways if you pushed it in on the turn, so you've lost nothing and b) you get a little bit of image value from making what looks (at face value) like a dumb bluff after calling with the nuts. It's a pretty standard play in PLO but a lot of folks don't know about it.

Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:11 pm


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2006-06-06T14:01:52-06:00 2006-06-06T14:01:52-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125386#p125386 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:01 pm


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2006-06-06T09:40:28-06:00 2006-06-06T09:40:28-06:00 https://livepokerforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14829&p=125249#p125249 <![CDATA[Wrap vs. wrap]]> Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:40 am


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