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I'm sure the thinking is this: Any 4, particularly ds is only a small dog to AA, so why not try it. But I think it makes no sense at all on AA, really--although one might throw the rare AAJJ-AAKK in there just for kicks.
Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:59 pm
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In my view, the better your reads, the more you can raise from whatever position--although LP potentially gives you more of a read.
Anyhow, I have about 22% of starting hands that as hands seem to be profitable over about 40k hands--and that includes the time where I'd have to classify myself as beginner, hence I no doubt wasn't playing some of these at all well at first.
In principle, if all of those are profitable, if exactly the same players would call for 3 times the money or more, then I would have made 3 times as much with a raise. But there's still the thinning the field issue.
Anyhow, without some sort of particular read on the table, I can only come up with maybe 7% or so of hands that are pretty clearly worth raising in LP--where the earlier position players have already committed some chips which are at minimum dead money or may also lead them to call with a dubious hand.
Other than that, I almost think that any raise can be justified only on the basis of some sort of read on the various players at the table.
Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:36 pm
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Anyways, interesting stuff.
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:44 pm
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With good wrap-type hands, I have no fundamental problem with the raise. But my concern on that is limiting the field in a situation where you'd like lots of callers--ideally a bunch of limpers, then a max raise from LP that's going to be bigger anyway than what you can raise in EP.
Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:17 pm
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Filtered for typical (for me) EP starting hands (basically AAxx, KK/QQxx, wraps, gap wraps and A-suited wraps, double small pairs etc.)
I found this using the "pre-flop raise" filter in PT
No raise: 1276 times for a (0.25) bb/hand loss
Any raise ( Raise/reraise/limp-reraise): 686 times for a 0.95 bb/hand profit.
Total: 1962 hands, 0,17 bb / hand.
So, I conclude, based on this smallish sample, that given my style and my typicall opponents, raising from EP is profitable. (If i didn't mess something up in PT
)Statistics: Posted by Anders — Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:33 am
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First, I don't think you can really say that if your post-flop play is great, you can play/raise anything. For example, if you only intend to bet a 13-outer or better, top 2 with some draw, or top/middle set, then only certain hands are likely to be of any real value.
Second, I do think the situation envisioned by Tom does occur (the live game I've been playing is actually pretty close). I think an EP raise actually may get more callers there, with almost any 4 hoping to spike 2 pair against AA. But if that's the case, and they're expecting AA from you, then you need to be raising as many strong wraps as possible--but not AA.
Third, I think there are various moves (this is where I think Rolf is extremely interesting) that you can make PF to isolate certain players on whom you have reads or to get quite a bit in as favorite with dead money along the lines of Rolf's short-stack strategy.
Fourth, a purely mathematical aspect: If you have exactly the same number of callers on just some profitable hand in the given situation, then a raise multiplies the profit-rate of that hand by whatever the raising quantity is, and that can make a big difference. But on also has to bear in mind the re-raise possibility--ok, so QQ may be profitable, but is it profitable HU against a re-raiser even if you do have position? Possibly in some situations, but certainly not always.
It just seems to me that there's a lot of continuity between PF and postflop aspects. Ok, you can raise Q832ds in LP if you want, but it's only going to be profitable if you can get by with quite a few bluffs. It's going to be extremely rare for that hand to make the nuts by the river in any case.
I dunno. I guess we just disagree about the importance of PF decisions. I still think there are lots of unexplored ways of increasing one's profit-rates through better PF plays, and I definitely intend to continue to explore those.
Statistics: Posted by Aisthesis — Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:38 am
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