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ANY flush draw with two low cards is favourite over your hand on the flop. I think your set is weak enough to play a lot more passively with two to come. I also don't think you necessarily want to force both players to fold above all else, as there's a good chance one of them is putting fairly dead money in the pot. Might be nice to get heads up, but I don't see it as a particular priority here.
Seeing the wood for the trees - the crucial salient point is that YOU HAVE POSITION OVER BOTH PLAYERS. You can outplay them later so pushing all in when you're liable not to be very +EV to do so is perhaps not my favoured move.
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:48 am
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I don't like a flat call for the same reason I like to push with a str8 flush draw in holdem. I don't want to get pushed off a hand when I miss on the turn (or in this case when a scare card comes). There are so few safe cards on the turn that I would fold or raise.
I like the raise here for a few reasons:
- You might be able to get the big stack to fold, small chance but a still something to consider
- There is always the possibility that one of these players are idiots and pushing in with an empty flush draw, A2, or an empty 23, or some other garbage.
If they are both good players the raise is even EV but since this is $50PL I think thte raise is the correct play.
Statistics: Posted by GooperMC — Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:19 am
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The problem in this situation is that you can't charge enough on these players on the flop to make it "correct" to fold. By betting or raising the pot - they will always have the odds to call on the flop.
What can be done? Well, you can do as you did - hope for a safe turn and river with your current nuts. You have an EV of .476 against A34x (he has .524). However, the problem here is that you are up against a third player. Here, you are most certainly the favorite to win some of the money in the pot - but the additional player could be creating more problems in making your hand hold up. Here's two situations to think of:
In the first case, you are up against
![[Ah]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ah.gif "The Ace of Hearts")
![[3h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/3h.gif "The Three of Hearts")
![[4c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4c.gif "The Four of Clubs")
![[Ks]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ks.gif "The King of Spades")
and![[3c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/3c.gif "The Three of Clubs")
![[4s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4s.gif "The Four of Spades")
![[Qh]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qh.gif "The Queen of Hearts")
![[Kh]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kh.gif "The King of Hearts")
. Here are the numbers from twodimes.net about it:pokenum -o8 ad as jd 7h - 3h 4c ah ks - kh 3c 4s qh -- ac 2h 9h
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ac 9h 2h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad Jd 7h 189 444 222 0 4 96 0 0.477
Ks 4c Ah 3h 33 149 451 66 0 0 435 0.325
4s 3c Kh Qh 7 7 593 66 0 0 435 0.199
Clearly you are making money in this situation, but you still only have 47.7% equity (which is quite fine 3-handed). However, think about this situation:
You are still up against
, but now the other opponent has middle set without a low draw ([9s] ![[9d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9d.gif "The Nine of Diamonds")
![[Td]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Td.gif "The Ten of Diamonds")
![[Js]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Js.gif "The Jack of Spades")
) and no blocking cards for the flush.pokenum -o8 ad as jd 7h - 3h 4c ah ks - 9d 9s td js -- ac 2h 9h
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ac 9h 2h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad Jd 7h 139 331 335 0 9 120 0 0.355
Ks 4c Ah 3h 272 275 391 0 435 0 0 0.580
Js 9s Td 9d 27 60 606 0 0 0 0 0.065
Here, you still have greater equity in the pot than 33% (which is break even) - but your margin is tiny.
So what it comes down to is how much you can handle variance. You might be in a situation where you are getting 35.5% equity, you might be in a situation with 58% equity. In both, for the main pot anyway, you are getting the right odds - but in the first case the margin is very small.
An option might be to make the pot sized raise on the flop and flat call the reraise from the short stack. Then you can see the turn and make a decision for the rest of the person's money. Another option is to "slow play" your hand - but in this case, you are merely waiting for a safe turn to pop everyone when you can actually give them the bad odds to call. In all honesty, I'm not sure I like either of these two options, but if you get a safe Qs on the turn, for instance, in the second situation your equity is back up to 47.7% and in the first situation it is as high as 62.5%.
Statistics: Posted by starstealer — Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:26 am
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![[Ad]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ad.gif "The Ace of Diamonds")
![[Jd]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif "The Jack of Diamonds")
![[7h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7h.gif "The Seven of Hearts")
. There are 5 limpers, so I limp. Flop is ![[Ac]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif "The Ace of Clubs")
![[2h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2h.gif "The Two of Hearts")
![[9h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9h.gif "The Nine of Hearts")
. Shot stack who has $25 in front of him, bets $2, gets called by another stack with $100, I have about $60 in front of me. I raise pot, short stack goes all in, gets called by big stack. Its now back to me, what do you do??? I pushed all in get called by big stack. Turn is ![[4h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4h.gif "The Four of Hearts")
and river is ![[5s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5s.gif "The Five of Spades")
. I was definatly screwed after the river but did I make the right play pushing all in on the turn.Statistics: Posted by Rhound50 — Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:33 am
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