Not raising any hand preflop will definately accomplish the goal of disguising your hand. But there are other ways to accomplish that, such as folding all of them, raising all of them, or just mixing it up. You should avoid becoming predictable against good opponents, but on most tables that means that you should avoid raising AAxx only.
It is true that if you don't raise preflop and you have top set that you might get a lot of action from someone with middle set. But you get the same action with a better payout if you raise many hands, so that he cannot put you on your top set. Assume you are playing a more or less sensible player X, and you just limped with AAxx to flop AT5r, and that X has TTxx. Now you bet the pot (4BB) and X raises the pot, making it 12BB to go. If there are draws on the board, you better reraise, making it 36BB to go. By assumption, X was more or less reasonable and starts wondering now. He might call the 36 but you're not getting much more out of him.
Now consider the case where you raised to 3BB before the flop and got 3 callers. Now the pot is 12BB; you bet pot, opponent raises pot (to 36BB) and now you can reraise allin. If he calls you get his entire stack. If not, you got 36BB. The best outcome in the first scenario is the worst outcome in the second.
There are situations where I like to see a cheap flop. For example, when I have a really marginal hand that needs to hit a very specific flop to win. If I have a hand like a 3-6 wrap or a pair of queens with not-so-good sidecards then there is not much benefit in raising.
Another situation is when there are many short stacks, in which case the stacks are not deep enough to play poker on the flop. (This is of course different in holdem where your hand can be very dominating.) But then, I don't like to play in a game where the majority of players has less than half a buyin.
Finally (sorry this turns into a bit of a rant), I agree that in the smaller games a raise will not necessarily weed out the crappy hands. But there are many other arguments to raise preflop than just weeding hands out. You want to take the initiative, manipulate pot size, and make people with weaker hands pay to see the flop. Imagine this scenario (which is far from uncommon): you have AQJTds, and your opponent has AKJT, but not suited. (Here you want your opponent to call of course.) Now the flop is KQ6. You both have a straight draw, but if the flop has one or two of one of your suits you're in such a better shape because of your extra draws and redraws. If you read your opponent for the straight draw you want to get as much money in as fast as possible (before the flush hits and he sees he's beat). Everytime you have the same draw/made hand but you have a freeroll to your opponents stack you need to be able to push it in as fast as you can.
Well, I'm curious what Monk and other experts have to say about this, but I think that the advantages of raising are much, much bigger than those of limping.
Pieter
Statistics: Posted by Hofstra — Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:02 pm
]]>
I used to play a lot of 0.5-1 plo and it was incredibly loose-passive, big pf raises did narrow the field though. In my experiences there were usually about 2-3 players who could read hands, and since you can have a decent pf raising range without a headache in plo the better readers couldnt give me excessive headache. I think it is a good idea to play conservatively preflop untill you get comforfable with your postflop play, but I don´t think the edge from raising never vs raising few hands and "disguising your hand" is too big at this level anyway (and from what I ve seen not often even at higher limits).
Statistics: Posted by forssell — Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:28 pm
]]>
]]>
Also, I think it is not a bad strategy on the low limit tables where raises don't really get out the bad hands. Therefore, raising with AAxx and then getting a 249 flop doesn't necessarily mean someone doesn't have two pair or a set with the garbage they play.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
]]>
Of course many things depend on table texture, but in an average game I think you miss out on some profit by not raising. You know the reasons for betting preflop I'm sure. There are people (such as ATE) who recommend raising at least a bit with any hand you will play, so that you get maximum value if you hit. If you make better decisions on the flop than your opponent you hope that you can induce them to make a mistake on the flop, and you'd prefer that to be an expensive one.
I also find that if you raise more hands then your opponents will adapt to that, which makes it easier to define their hands, especially when you have notes on them saying what type of hands they reraise with or call a raise with. In LP I raise about half of the hands I play when there are only limpers in front of me, to exploit my position. In EP I will mix it up, sometimes raising, sometimes limp-reraising with premium hands. With medium hands like weak aces, I will sometimes raise full pot, and sometimes raise less than that.
If you ALWAYS limp with all your hands then your opponents will never be able to put you on a hand preflop. But you are not earning as much $ as you could. If you only raise your best hands, then you will not make much money from any observant opponent.
Pieter
Statistics: Posted by Hofstra — Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:07 pm
]]>
]]>
Hand 2: I play this the same way. I don't know what they were calling the flop with. If you think they are both likely to bet out on the turn if they made their straight, then things change a bit. But you don't want to risk being checkraised here, so a check for a free card is fine. Since your opponents showed weakness on both streets, I'd make my value bet a bit smaller.
Hand 3: Unless your opponent is an uncurable slowplayer, it is clear that you have the best hand when he just calls the turn. He either has a smaller flush or a set and doesn't know what to do with it. On the river it is kind of player dependent, but I would make a smallish bet if I think this is more likely to get called. Although I've seen people call off big bets with the third nut flush, even at $100 games.
Pieter
Statistics: Posted by Hofstra — Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:06 am
]]>
Hand 3
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (9 handed)
Button ($19.25)
SB ($27.11)
BB ($23.29)
Hero ($27.55)
UTG+1 ($11.11)
MP1 ($11.42)
MP2 ($27.8)
MP3 ($21.15)
CO ($19.58)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with
![[Kc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kc.gif "The King of Clubs")
, ![[9s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9s.gif "The Nine of Spades")
, ![[Ks]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ks.gif "The King of Spades")
, ![[Jc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jc.gif "The Jack of Clubs")
. Hero calls $0.25, 4 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($1.25)
![[Tc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Tc.gif "The Ten of Clubs")
, ![[2c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2c.gif "The Two of Clubs")
, ![[3c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/3c.gif "The Three of Clubs")
(5 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $1.25.
Turn: ($3.75)
![[Qs]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qs.gif "The Queen of Spades")
(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $3.6, BB calls $3.60.
River: ($10.95)
![[7h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7h.gif "The Seven of Hearts")
(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $10.45, BB folds.
Final Pot: $21.40
Results in white below:
Hero has Kc 9s Ks Jc (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins $21.40.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:40 pm
]]>
Hand 1
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed)
CO ($33.15)
Button ($16.48)
SB ($24.15)
BB ($34.15)
Hero ($24.65)
UTG+1 ($42.01)
MP1 ($10.35)
MP2 ($5)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with
, ![[As]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/As.gif "The Ace of Spades")
, ![[Ac]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif "The Ace of Clubs")
, ![[5d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5d.gif "The Five of Diamonds")
. Hero calls $0.25, 4 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($1)
![[4s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4s.gif "The Four of Spades")
, , ![[Jd]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif "The Jack of Diamonds")
(4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $1.
Turn: ($3)
![[2s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2s.gif "The Two of Spades")
(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $2.85, BB calls $2.85.
River: ($8.70)
![[Td]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Td.gif "The Ten of Diamonds")
(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB folds.
Final Pot: $13.70
Results in white below:
Hero has 2c As Ac 5d (straight, five high).
Outcome: Hero wins $13.70.
Hand 2
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (9 handed)
SB ($18.7)
BB ($92.56)
UTG ($24.25)
UTG+1 ($60.62)
MP1 ($15.54)
Hero ($27.11)
MP3 ($5.37)
CO ($25)
Button ($13.45)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with
![[5c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5c.gif "The Five of Clubs")
, ![[Qh]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qh.gif "The Queen of Hearts")
, ![[7c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7c.gif "The Seven of Clubs")
, ![[Qc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qc.gif "The Queen of Clubs")
. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($1.75)
, ![[4h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4h.gif "The Four of Hearts")
, (7 players)SB checks, BB bets $1.75, UTG+1 calls $1.75, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $7, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $5.25, UTG+1 calls $5.25.
Turn: ($22.75)
(3 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.
River: ($22.75)
![[4d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4d.gif "The Four of Diamonds")
(3 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.
Final Pot: $32.75
Results in white below:
Outcome: Hero wins $32.75.
I was a bit confused on what to bet on these rivers. Also, what do you think of the play, particularly on the turn for hand 2.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:36 pm
]]>