However, in omaha, saem move.... well, it seems like i've just cocked my hat (as Johnny Hughes might say...) and announced to the premises I'm holding some variety of AA hand. So now I have to play a hand that most likely WON'T connect hard with the flop, for a raise, out of position. And everyone knows half of the four cards in my hand. That puts me at a BIG disadvantage.
The big question is, when I inevitably get two callers in position on me, what do I do with a flop that totally misses my hand? Indeed, with AA76ss how many flops HIT my hand? A flush draw with unconnected low cards, an open-ender at the top end with no flush possible, a variety of the above, a set of aces, or a board like 226 are about the best I can hope for, and I'm not going to see those more than maybe one flop in four at best. So, for the other three flops, I'm liable to be picking up the likes of 59K rainbow, with one of my suit. So what do I do? Bet the pot? Problem with that a) I can't call a raise b) I can't bet the turn if my opponent calls and I don't improve to something. So three times out of four I'm out of position with a hand that's very hard to play.
OK, contrast it with limping and calling a raise - if an ace comes, because I didn't re-raise preflop, someone with a lower set, draw or even two pair might call my huge bet on the flop (or make a bet that I can check-raise, not in fear of me holding AAxx), so I get paid if my favourite card comes. Also, if a big draw for my hand (straight or flush) comes, I can still bet it hard and, because the pot is smaller, I can make MORE decisions post-flop, which gives me the advantage over my opponents. I can bluff more boards, because all 4 of my cards (rather than just 2 of them) are a mystery, and I can make more money in a draw vs draw situation by holding that overpair. Because the pot is smaller, I have better implied odds to chase a mediocre board. And, statistically most importantly, when the board totally misses me, I don't feel so compelled to waste a stack of money betting a big and obvious bluff into a field of opponents.
In LP, with a BIG double-suited AA hand, there's good reason to lift a re-raise, especially if you think you can get it all in, but it's much easier to play these hands in position. As a rule, with an AA hand, even a decent one, a RE-raise is out of bounds UNLESS you can get about 60% of your chips in the pot, thus pot committing your opponent on a weaker starting hand. Remember that even four RANDOM cards hold 35-40% of the equity against an AA hand in PLO, and so even if you push all in with AAKKds and your opponent calls blind, he still beats you well over a third of the time. Don't overvalue those aces! This is a game about the flop and beyond....
Monk
xxxxx
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:34 pm
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1. In hand 2, why not limp-reraise?
2. How the hell do I get out of here?
Statistics: Posted by Nortonesque — Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:52 pm
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Also, with that realization, I've found that there are no "x" cards in Omaha Hi/Lo. Anything 8 or lower is obviously important - as would be anything that makes a straight or a draw to a straight. In this case, only the 9 could be considered "unimportant" in most circumstances - but if that's the card that comes out, you'd just put it out because it is better to be precise.
Statistics: Posted by starstealer — Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:27 pm
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However, nice catch Star but there is enough information out there that he would have to have 1 of few hands to have that 6.
Does that mean you think my play was wrong? How would you have played it?
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:39 am
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Also, I might call your attention to something... bear with me.
Hero is CO with A4KK
Hero is UTG with AA67
Hero is SB with 6678
Hero is BB with 2568
Hero is UTG with 89JQ
In the first hand, you commented that "MP1 is a pretty solid player so I don't think there are many hands that would include a 6 in it."
Of the 5 hands you provided - 3 of them have sixes in them. Yes, one of them was in the BB and you got to see a free flop, but in the SB you had to call a raise for it. Also, AA67, if that had been your opponent's hand in hand 1 - could you see him folding?
Just a "for instance" I figured I'd point out. (I don't necessarily think you wrong, but be aware that solid players will have every possible card in their hand as long as the hand "fits" into their definition of good.
/d
Statistics: Posted by starstealer — Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:43 am
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hand 3 I would reraise the turn because of the hearts, villian seems to play PLO8 btw ! A277 !! cold calling the flop is ok for such a cheap price imho.
hand 4 is ok as the 'nut' flush chaser bets his flush so small, I hope you check the river if
![[7c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7c.gif "The Seven of Clubs")
or ![[2c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2c.gif "The Two of Clubs")
doesn't hit, but it is obvious.hand 5 perfect
Statistics: Posted by euri10 — Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:38 am
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Hand 1
MP1 is a pretty solid player so I don't think there are many hands that would include a 6 in it. I decided to call the flop to see if he followed through on the turn. If he did, I would know he had the other 6 or AA. I was more worried about the other limper but he was short stacked and thought.
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (10 handed)
Hero ($56.55)
Button ($22.5)
SB ($64.1)
BB ($12.8)
UTG ($7.35)
UTG+1 ($12.2)
UTG+2 ($25.75)
MP1 ($63.95)
MP2 ($21.4)
MP3 ($18.9)
Preflop: Hero is CO with
![[Ad]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Ad.gif "The Ace of Diamonds")
, ![[4c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4c.gif "The Four of Clubs")
, ![[Kc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kc.gif "The King of Clubs")
, ![[Kh]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Kh.gif "The King of Hearts")
. UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, UTG+2 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.
Flop: ($2.35)
![[6d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/6d.gif "The Six of Diamonds")
, ![[6h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/6h.gif "The Six of Hearts")
, ![[6s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/6s.gif "The Six of Spades")
(9 players)BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets $2.25, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.25, Button folds, BB calls $2.25, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds.
Turn: ($9.10)
![[5d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5d.gif "The Five of Diamonds")
(3 players)BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $5, BB calls $5, MP1 folds.
River: ($19.10)
![[9s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9s.gif "The Nine of Spades")
(2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.
Final Pot: $19.10
Results in white below:
BB has Td Ac Qs Qc (full house, sixes full of queens).
I win with my KK. MP1 said he had KK also.
Outcome: Hero wins $19.10.
Was staying in this hand just asking for trouble. What about the turn bet? Since I was in position, I thought I could take the free showdown if needed. Should I had put him all in on the river since he didn't have much left?
Hand 2
I'm proud of my read on this hand
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (9 handed)
MP3 ($13.15)
CO ($24.55)
Button ($67.24)
SB ($22.75)
BB ($0.74)
Hero ($44.46)
UTG+1 ($34.6)
MP1 ($12)
MP2 ($31.65)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with
![[As]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/As.gif "The Ace of Spades")
, ![[7s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/7s.gif "The Seven of Spades")
, , . MP1 posts a blind of $0.25. Hero calls $0.25, UTG+1 raises to $1.35, 3 folds, CO calls $1.35, 1 fold, SB calls $1.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.10.
Flop: ($5.90)
![[4h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/4h.gif "The Four of Hearts")
, ![[5h]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5h.gif "The Five of Hearts")
, ![[5c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/5c.gif "The Five of Clubs")
(4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3, CO folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $10, UTG+1 calls $7.
Turn: ($25.90)
(2 players)Hero bets $24.65, UTG+1 folds.
Final Pot: $50.55
Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $50.55.
I figured the only thing I REALLY have to worry about is the flush draw. He raised preflop and haven't seen him do anything stupid yet so I put him on a good hand meaning one that missed that flop except maybe the flush draw. I checked to see if anyone else shows interest in the hand. Since everyone folded, I figured my top two pair are good and I have the open ended straight draw too. The turn changed nothing so if he wanted that flush or if he had KKxx, I wanted him to pay full or fold. He told me he had the flush draw and put me on the 5. I think I made a great read and took as much as I could out of this. Comments?
Hand 3
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (10 handed)
UTG+2 ($32.95)
MP1 ($22.3)
MP2 ($44.69)
MP3 ($27.51)
CO ($24.05)
Button ($33.35)
Hero ($25)
BB ($47.4)
UTG ($24.05)
UTG+1 ($28.1)
Preflop: Hero is SB with
, , ![[8s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/8s.gif "The Eight of Spades")
, . 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $0.5, MP2 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25.
Flop: ($2.50)
, ![[3s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/3s.gif "The Three of Spades")
, (5 players)Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.4, MP2 calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40.
Turn: ($4.10)
(4 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.25, MP2 raises to $4.65, Hero calls $4.65, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $4.40.
River: ($18.05)
![[Jd]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif "The Jack of Diamonds")
(3 players)Hero bets $10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $10.
Final Pot: $38.05
Results in white below:
Hero has 6d 7s 8s 6s (straight, seven high).
villian had [ Ad 7d 7c 2c ]
Outcome: Hero wins $38.05.
I called the flop because it was so cheap and my implied odds were good. I only check called on the flop to trap and hope someone came with us if we were splitting. Plus, since I had the higher straight draw, if I hit, I figured I could get them for everything. Maybe I chicked out by betting out the river but Ive seen too many hands checked down to check it.
Hand 4
This one just was just out of curiosity
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (10 handed)
SB ($35.8)
Hero ($28.45)
UTG ($24.4)
UTG+1 ($7.65)
UTG+2 ($10.15)
MP1 ($34)
MP2 ($56.2)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($53.25)
Button ($23.3)
Preflop: Hero is BB with
![[6c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/6c.gif "The Six of Clubs")
, ![[2d]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2d.gif "The Two of Diamonds")
, , . 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero checks.
Flop: ($1.35)
![[Qc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Qc.gif "The Queen of Clubs")
, , ![[3c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/3c.gif "The Three of Clubs")
(5 players)Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.5, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Button folds, Hero calls $0.50.
Turn: ($2.35)
(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.5, Hero calls $0.50.
River: ($3.35)
(2 players)Hero bets $3.2, UTG+2 raises to $6.4, Hero raises to $9.6, UTG+2 calls $2.50 (All-In).
Final Pot: $21.85
Results in white below:
He had [ 6h 2c 3d Ac ] for the "other" nut flush
Outcome: Hero wins $21.85.
After I raised him on the river, he types "sf?" in the chat box and as he calls, i just type "yup" Now, I didn't think my play was good but he played it horribly and I just chased this once because it was so cheap. Who knew that this time this $1 investment would get me his stack. Too bad he didn't have more. How would you have played it to get the most money if he had more? Bet out and then max reraise when back to me?
Hand 5
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (10 handed)
CO ($26.25)
Button ($21.85)
SB ($33.8)
BB ($15.15)
Hero ($33.7)
UTG+1 ($12.75)
UTG+2 ($85.55)
MP1 ($10.3)
MP2 ($24.5)
MP3 ($28.05)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with
![[Jc]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jc.gif "The Jack of Clubs")
, ![[9c]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/9c.gif "The Nine of Clubs")
, , . Hero calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 raises to $1, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.75, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $0.75.
Flop: ($3.60)
![[Jh]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Jh.gif "The Jack of Hearts")
, , ![[Js]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/Js.gif "The Jack of Spades")
(3 players)Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks.
Turn: ($3.60)
(3 players)Hero bets $3.45, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $3.45.
River: ($10.50)
![[2s]](https://livepokerforum.com/images/smilies/2s.gif "The Two of Spades")
(2 players)Hero bets $10, MP3 calls $10.
Final Pot: $30.50
Results in white below:
Hero has Jc 9c Qc 8s (three of a kind, jacks).
MP3 has Ac 9s 7s Ad (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $30.50.
This is the only hand of the bunch that I believe that is really questionable. For some reason I didn't put him on the J since he raised preflop but checked a flop. Unless he's an idiot, he either doesn't have it or was raising with crap that got him a boat. When he called my turn bet, I stayed with my read that he couldn't let go of his overpair and got value.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:07 am
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