Now in this case I see where this hand is really not strong enough to merit this play. But I have had sucess with this with my AA and KK hands.
Statistics: Posted by devilmollusk — Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:25 pm
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the idea, as far as i can tell, is that you raise with three high cards and a low card operating under the assumption that you will often get low-only hands to call. the hope is that you get one or zero low cards on the flop, and then you have a strong hand and your opponent has, at best, flush potential and a backdoor low draw. as such, the pot will likely be taken down on the flop, and/or the PF aggressor (DM) will have a decent made or drawing hand (e.g., a str8) to continue with. furthermore, if DM is playing against another high hand, he will often have a backdoor draw to a low. i think that this is what DM was thinking.
as the flops that only have one or fewer low cards is only about 1/3 (37%) of the time, i think wintermute takes it a bit further by suggesting that a high hand can play aggressively on the flop even if an A or 2 hits with another low card. The idea is that your opponents low was probably compromised to some extent, and an A should help your high hand to some extent, so you can still hope to get a fold if you play the flop aggressively. this gives the play a few more percentage points to hit. of course, the success of this strategy depends on your read about the extent to which your opponent will only play premium (e.g., A23x) lows against a PF raise. could i use "extent" a bit more?
a quote from wintermute i read said something like "i will lose a lot of small pots but win a few big ones" -- a classic smallball versus powerball concept. i think that it has the further benefit of getting monsters paid off at other times due to seeming bizarre sequences of raises and folds that are probably hard to read.
i think that DM's implementation of this strategy had a few weaknesses. first, the starting hand was weak for a high hand, so even if he gets his wish (i.e., two or more high cards on the flop), he may end up with a trap hand (as he seemed to). second, his opponents were a bit too loose for this type of play to work -- namely, he wasn't able to narrow the field down to HU with a heavily low oriented hand. third, DMs backdoor low draw was weak -- i would prefer at least a 4 or 5 with the A. fourth, as monk said, the non-full-pot bet on the flop gave some drawing hand decent odds (implied, if not pot) to draw. fifth, he was out of position. with position, his flop bet (if he was the aggressor) probably would have given him better options on the turn (e.g., bet, take a free card, etc.).
anyway, i would love to have more discussion on this style. i certainly don't understand the nuances, and i definitely think that i might be wrong to try it at the 25plo8 tables, as i will be less able to put people on (low) hands. comments?
Statistics: Posted by Kuso — Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:54 am
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You need to bet full pot on the flop, you're giving them good odds to chase with a wide variety of hands by betting so weakly.
On the turn you have a mediocre 2 pair on a board with two flush draws, a multitude of straight draws and a low draw. Any card that doesn't boat you up on the river is, potentially, a bit scary, and so you're very likely to have to fold for a full pot bet on the river. You may also be behind already to a set, higher two pair, or a couple of drawing hands that have a huge number of outs to kill your hand. I'd just let this go on the turn, if the flop pot bet didn't shift them and if one leads out into you on the turn.
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:57 am
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Seat 4: devilmollusk [AS,10S,KH,7H] ($64.50 in chips)
Seat 5: larsgronn ($17.05 in chips)
Seat 6: SmartPic1 ($76.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Smokeyboy ($42.45 in chips)
Seat 8: Cleaner20 ($54.20 in chips)
Seat 9: Jack5hit ($35.75 in chips)
Seat 10: staffbearer ($57.25 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
john45 posts blind ($0.50), devilmollusk posts blind ($0.50).
PRE-FLOP
larsgronn folds, SmartPic1 folds, Smokeyboy folds, Cleaner20 calls $0.50, Jack5hit calls $0.50, staffbearer folds, qucalme folds, john45 checks, devilmollusk bets $2, Cleaner20 calls $2, Jack5hit calls $2, john45 folds.
FLOP [board cards 7C,JD,KC ]
devilmollusk bets $5, Cleaner20 calls $5, Jack5hit calls $5.
TURN [board cards 7C,JD,KC,8D ]
devilmollusk checks, Cleaner20 checks, Jack5hit bets $12, devilmollusk calls $12, Cleaner20 calls $12.
RIVER [board cards 7C,JD,KC,8D,5H ]
devilmollusk checks, Cleaner20 checks, Jack5hit bets $16.25 and is all-in, devilmollusk folds, Cleaner20 calls $16.25.
SHOWDOWN
Jack5hit shows [ 9D,6D,JC,JH ]
Cleaner20 shows [ 2D,AC,9H,8C ]
Cleaner20 wins low $45.25, Jack5hit wins high $45.25.
Ok, let me outline my thinking ahead of time here so at least you know what to pick apart. I raised pre-flop to try to thin the field. I sometimes do this with good high hands so that I thin out the lousy low draws. This way I can sometimes back into the low if I am going against another high hand that I beat. Maybe this is foolish.
The continuation bet is pretty standard I think on a board with poor low potential and a flopped 2 pair.
I checked the turn because I figured one of them for trips and I wanted to control the size of the bet. Pretty sure a bet would be raised here. I thought for a while before calling the turn bet. Here is my rationale for calling... my read on cleaner is that he is a low junky. I figure he has the nut low, but there is a good chance he is going to put dead money into this pot. I figured Jack5hit for trips and I figured I had lots of outs to beat him. That is also the reason I folded the river.
Statistics: Posted by devilmollusk — Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:55 am
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