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I would max raise the opening bet to promote the strength of my middling flush draw, because I don't want anyone with a bare flush draw calling in (they will struggle to do so if they're any sort of decent player, after a bet and a raise).
If my opponent then RE-raises me, I can put him safely on a set of 9s. The power in the hand now lies with me, because I know 95% what he holds. In this instance, I would merely call with a big stack and see the turn. If the board pairs, I would know I am drawing dead and can safely muck my hand. If I hit my straight I can see what he does (he is quite likely to bet out again) and I can potentially make a huge raise to get all the chips in. If there's any money left after this, again I'll save the last bet if he's pot committed so I can fold on a paired river if I think he'll make the crying call with just the set at the end. If I think there's no chance of him calling the end, I'll try to get all in on the turn (this would be the most usual situation). If the flush comes on the turn, I will wait to see what my opponent does. He may of course have top set with a big flush draw, and therefore bet the turn if the flush hits. However, i'd think there was a) enough chance of him bluffing with his set and b) enough chance he has a Q or K high flush draw and will fold to my raise, that I would probably raise a flush on the turn if he bets, unless I know my opponent is not a bluffer and will call down with a non-nut flush (i.e. a calling station or loose player) in which case I would consider folding.
Part of the reason for not getting all in on the flop would be that my opponent might just have the set and a bigger flush draw, which weakens my hand greatly. In this instance it would be horrible to get all in for a huge stack, whereas with a wrap/flush draw that's slightly ahead, it would not be AS horrible a mistake for him to play for his stack. Also, you reserve the right to pass a paired turn, which is an important concept that sometimes comes into play in PLO when you're favourite with a draw but playing against a pot-committed set with the action on you.
In the actual situation of this hand, with a low flush draw and a straight draw, I don't think I would play for my stack as there's too many loose players (who would call any better flush draw) on these tables, and there's not enough money in the pot to consider myself pot committed. I'd probably call the opening bet and see what happens on the turn. If everyone else folds, I would consider calling another large turn bet, but if there's another caller i'd assume that my draws were not all live and fold to a pot sized bet on the turn. With these tiny stacks it's very hard to play any poker; it wouldnt even be too bad to fold to the turn bet. Certainly, raising it to get it all in is very enterprising and a little poor; if you want to toss coins you shouldn't be playing poker, so I think the villain in this case played the hand fairly poorly.
Monk
xxxxx
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:05 pm
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Eman was on the table and he said he had the king high flush draw so if i did make it cheap, he could have won the pot. I rather would have given the money to him, but that was 2 more spades gone and he still hit. Just some hands that I have to double up or go broke.
I still finished the session up 18 bucks, $70 for the day and just finished playing today up $190 so I'm not bitter about this hand anymore.
Thanks to you and ATE, i'm starting to consistently kill these games.
Statistics: Posted by briachek — Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:12 pm
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I'm playing $25 PL Omaha on Party with a stack of $100 or so. My opponent's stack is about $40.
I'm in BB with 9932 ss hearts and the main opponent is in SB. The action is 6 handed and villian limps, i check.
Flop comes down
Pot is almost $3. Villain bets the pot. I reraise the max with the current nuts. Its folded around to the villian who reraises the max nearly putting himself all in. I go all in, he calls his last few dollars. Turn is offsuit A. River is the which i know kills my hand, he had to be on least one of the draws and both hit with the one card. He shows for the open ended straight draw and 8 high flush draw.
Ok, I know why he did what he did. He put me on the set and assumed that I didn't have the flush draw. I had raised the pot to push out other draws so he could think his flush draw was live. I ran the hands in an odds calculator and on the flop, I was 52% to win to his 48%. Now I'm new to this and I was suprised to find it so close, but now I know.
My question is how should i have played this? called the bet on the flop, hope for a blank on the turn and then push? I would assume he would lead out again on turn with a pot bet. If he didn't, I lead for the pot, i can likely fold the check/fold the river since any draws there would have completed.
Also, what if I was first to act and the guy with the draw was after me. Bet pot on the flop and go all in if he reraised? Call? Try for a check raise? Was this a hand I'm just bound to lose and practically double the other guy? The only way I could see that I wasn't gonna double him is if I played it for a boat only and folded when I missed or if I can get him to fold the turn to a big bet after calling on the flop. After watching him play after this hand, i think he likely would have called me on turn anyways.
Any help is appreciated.
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OK, well simple and quick answer - you played this correctly. The reason you pour money in on this flop in PLO high at party is that the opposition is so poor that you can't DEFINITELY put him on a hand with a re-raise. He could easily have a set of threes, a bare flush draw, two pair with a draw, a big wrap straight draw etc etc etc, and you're miles ahead. Therefore, you have no idea what turn card kills your hand (for instance, what if an 8 falls, do you check? lead out? What if he raises?). You have absolutely no clue where you are but you know that against 90% of the hands he might hold, you're ahead. Therefore, get all in now and make him pay to draw out on you. Unless he has a wrap with a flush draw he's behind, and even if he DOES have the big wrap with a flush draw, you're still likely taking about 40% of the pot equity and thus you can't fold with what you've already invested.
With the villain betting out first there is absolutely NO WAY you can consider giving a free card here to every draw in existence. If you just call you could be facing half the table with almost every possible card being a potential demon. If you just call and pick up two extra callers, it's likely that ANY card that puts out a straight and any flush card will draw out on you; if you raise, you charge these skanky draws the maximum AND potentially get it heads up with a hand you might just be dominating (lower set) or slightly ahead of.
In a non-max buyin game, you would not play so loosely, as you could likely put the guy on a big hand like a wrap with a flush draw, in which case you're probably tossing a coin one way or the other, which you don't want to do with a 1000BB stack! With such shallow stacks at Party it would be incorrect to make any move other than keep pumping this until all the money is in the middle.
As to how you play this first to act in a multiway pot, well, on these tables I'd lean towards checking it. With the stacks so shallow, as I've already said, your best chance lies in getting the money in the middle and playing it out. The great advantage with checking here is that on a loose-aggressive table (as you'll see almost every time you play PLO at party) you'll probably see a raiser and a few calls. Then, when the pot comes round to you, you can make a SERIOUS raise and either play out a multiway pot where you likely own 50% or more of the equity, or get heads up against your drawing opponent with additional dead money in the pot. I would lead out with this hand unless an immensely aggressive player is to act behind me as I feel check-raising gives away a little too much about your hand (I would bet a wide variety of hands on this flop) on a higher buy-in table with more sophisticated opponents. I would, however, never fold this hand or indeed fail to raise it on such a table because although a massive wrap with a flush draw is ahead of you, you can't just assume your opponent has that (even in the 400 buyin games) and have to play for your stack when you only have 100 BBs. The occasions he's slight favourite on the draw are more than counteracted by the occasions he's dead and buried playing middle set, or over-valuing something liek AA with the flush draw.
Hope this helps.
Monk
xxxxx
Statistics: Posted by Felonius_Monk — Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:10 pm
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