Hi MecosKing,

First of all, I just found out the that the % i said, may not have been correct,
It was correct for a full table game....
I have adjusted the blind play like you said, and play many more hands, and protect the blinds from time to time.
I brougth the flop seen to 29%, but I am not sure if that is a 100% correct, because it is a program that culclates the flops that will be seen if playing in this manner.

One more problem I have is the different limits. ( and by the way, I only play the 6 handed limit holdem, not NL and no full ring)
I move betweem the 2-4 3-6 and 5-10, and the thing is that the right way for 2-4 is realy not good for the 5-10 and vice versa.
So you think that playing like you said will work at the 2-4 tables also?

by PFA, do you mean aggression factor ? (post flop aggression ?)

and one last question, are there hands that if you have them you dont fold and stay till the end, for example, a top pair, with an ok kicker, or the 4th best 1 card flush ect....
some times I find myself with hands lik that and the table is getting action that makes me think my hand will probably not hold, but after that I see I was the winner...
So should I just NOT FOLD certin hand ( because its not like in NL that you can easly fold a big hand.)
A pointer or two in this matter will help me greatly.

Thanks for the help.

Hey Dax--

Well, as for the different limits, i cant say how the lower ones play, because the only ones i have played in forever are the 10-20s on party- and the lowest i ever played was the 5-10s there, which IMHO, play a little bit tighter than the 10s actually (you see more maniacal play on the 10s for some reason)

I think your 29% is not bad. You will sometimes be less when your cold, and sometimes be close to 40, when your hot, or when the table is going insane, and luring you into playing speculative hands more than you otherwise would.

As far as stuff that i wont lay down. Well, thats a really really really hard question, and the answer depends alot on players, first off (i know, EVERYONE loves to hear that - hey, if you gotta read on him, just kindof, you know, FIGURE OUT if he has it or not. If he doesnt, then call. If he does then fold! See that was easy!)

But its true, youll observe players betting or raising on scare cards (1 card straights, etc) and youll see if they have it or not, and if you see someone is a bluffer, then you oughta not lay down hands to him. Watch for him switching gears on you though (that happened earlier tonight with a guy actually).

More than read though (who the hell REALLY has that accurate of a read anyways, especially online when your playin a million different people?), it matters if the pot is heads up or not. Heads up, i will almost never laydown top pair/good kicker- Very very often nowadays i see (more than i used to) is people popping the pot on the expensive streets with nothing more than TP with an ok kicker, and sometimes when they pickup a draw. This happens often enough that you oughta generally not laydown a good top pair hand heads up. You should generally also not laydown any halfway decent fourflush hand, like you said probly 4th nuts. Remember though, this only applies HU, and depending on the action, you still might. For example if the pot is multiway, then the fourflush hits and someone bets into the field, and everyone mucks, your 10high flush isnt worth a damn most of the time, and youll need a monster pot to call his turn bet here (less so slightly for river) -- even still, the bigger the pot, the less likely you are to be good, because whose gonna put in that much with a jackhigh four flush draw? On the other hand, if you went after someones blind and they called, and then the four flush got there and they bet, and you have ANY flush card at all, you should generally call, because people love to bluff at pots like this Headsup. Be aware of the bettors position -- if he bets into the field on a scary board, its tough to call.

So, as usual, what you call DEPENDS. hehe. The real problems start when the pot is threeway or more, and the action comes bet and raised to you on the turn- LIke you have QK and the flop was 10K8, and the turn was a 9 and the bet comes bet and raised. Usually here, you are no good--but then, if the board is something like 33Q8 and you hold KQ and the same thing happens, then i would definitely call because the raiser could easily be popping it with a decent queen or even JJ, figuring the bettor for a steal. Its tough to give someone credit for something like a 3, although you will see it from time to time.
The decision is made easier when your the first to bet, because seeing the showdown will cost you only 2 more bets instead of three...

Also, take care to notice the difference between FIELD raises and ISOLATION raises.
On the expensive streets, i have NO problem popping a top pair hand if i think it'll knock people out of the pot. Even if im not totally sure im good against the bettor, if im sure enough that i know im going to showdown, i will pop it to get the guys behind me out. Also, if you do this in position, you see a showdown for just as much as you wouldve had you check called (unless you are unfortunate enough to get 3bet by the bettor)
The ISOLATION raise is much easier to call than the FIELD raise. I am WAY more inclined to call an isolation raise with a top pair hand than a field raise.


When someone check raises the FIELD, you should generally run, unless you have outs to a hand that you think will win. Now granted, sometimes people dothist without a very great hand, but screw that- I will muck a pretty decent hand in that case because you are most often beat, and so sometimes you lay the best hand--thats poker.

Lets say you are in MP with QK and the flop was Q86 with 2 diamonds, and you bet and were called around, and 9d hits.. EP checks, you bet, LP calls, EP Raises THE BOTH of you. In a case like that, i muckit just about everytime, unless im drunk, in which case ill threebet once in awhile. The only way ill call a checkraise like that is if the board is so bad looking that i think someone might have the gall to do that with a top pair hand. But think about it. When do you do this? When you are slow rolling a set, or when you turn a straight or a flush, thats when. And usually, when someone does that to you, thats what you can expect.

Uhmm... what else. I cant think of anything else at the moment because ive been up all night playing, and have a final tomorrow and i can barely think straight anyways--so i hope some of this shit makes sense, and helps....

Many thanks, MecosKing.
I will put it into use, and will let you know how it goes.
GL tomorrow!

Hi MecosKing,
If you have some time, I had a hand I wanted to run by you :
(it wasnt anything special just a type I see alot of.)
basicaly I had top pair with an ace kicker from the button,
i had a bet and a raise in front of me, so I made it 3 bets, they called, and then checked it to me on later streets, and I checked also , the question is : Is this bad play Generly ?
I know this time i won, but the turn was a higher card, and made the a flush board... so i didnt want to get raised and lose 2 bb....
But I have a feeling I should have played diffrently.

Bootman O: posts small blind $1
DONNIE LEE: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AtgDax [Ah Ts]
Red_Dwarf: calls $2
scbeachbum: folds
PocketNutz: folds
AtgDax: calls $2
Bootman O: raises $2 to $4
DONNIE LEE: calls $2
Red_Dwarf: calls $2
AtgDax: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [9s Tc 6c]
Bootman O: bets $2
DONNIE LEE: folds
Red_Dwarf: raises $2 to $4
AtgDax: raises $2 to $6
Bootman O: calls $4
Red_Dwarf: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9s Tc 6c]
Bootman O: checks
Red_Dwarf: checks
AtgDax: checks
*** RIVER *** [9s Tc 6c Kc]
Bootman O: checks
Red_Dwarf: checks
AtgDax: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bootman O: shows [8d Ac] (high card Ace)
Red_Dwarf: mucks hand
AtgDax: shows [Ah Ts] (a pair of Tens)
AtgDax collected $33 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $34 | Rake $1
Board [9s Tc 6c Kc 5h]
Seat 1: Red_Dwarf mucked [7d Jd]
Seat 2: scbeachbum folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: PocketNutz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AtgDax (button) showed [Ah Ts] and won ($33) with a pair of Tens
Seat 5: Bootman O (small blind) showed [8d Ac] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 6: DONNIE LEE (big blind) folded on the Flop

I tryed playing the hands you mentioned in differente limits, and I found that in the lowest level (1-2) It is extreamly profitable... ( in 1-2 terms of course lol)
I actualy never play the 1-2.... but I just wanted to test it, and It worked perfectly...
now if it can only work on the 3-6 5-10 the same....

Hey Dax

Well, damn! Im glad my wonderful 'poker insights' actually do something for someone besides lose the rent money. IM glad to hear your doing well.

As far as the hand that you posted, that is a tough one. I like the way you played the flop, obviously. You gotta jam that hand as fast as possible as much as possible. The turn was a very bad card for you though, i admit. It brought a flush and an overcard. But, your opponents checked!

Now this is a touchy situation because the short handed tables are the check/raise capitals of the world. You definitely dont want to lose 2bb, and if someone has a flush, you have nothing to redraw to, and that always sucks.

However, I think you can safely bet here, and if you walk into a check raise, you can safely muck your hand, unless your opponents are really tricky and youve seen em make some big moves (like someone doing that with a naked is possible, but very unusual- or maybe the and a smaller pair-not as unusual but still pretty damn rare) The thing is, your threebet could easily be seen as a free card play for a flush draw since you were in position, and its doubtful anyone from EP would have the gall to raise your bet in this spot without a flush, because you having the flush seems too likely...or posibly some other big hand like a set that isnt going anywhere--I also think that because the flush card is such an obvious scare card, someone that made the flush would PROBLY just go ahead and bet it, and hope you call station him. Check raise attempts on flushes miss too often, and even when you getem off, the CR is more likely to knock someone holding a pair out of the hand than a bet is, because its more of a show of strength generally, and its more costly to someone that wants to see the showdown.

What this means is that you can safely bet your hand probably, and then if you just get called, you can figure your probably still good. However, if there were 3 opponents in, id probably check the river, just in case one of them stumbled into 2 pair, or played thier king weakly because of the fear of the flush--And anyway, the main reason for betting was protecting your hand--this particular hand is pretty marginal in terms of value betting, esp with 5 cards and a flush out there on the river, IMHO.

So what this all means is yeah, you should bet your hand, because if its NOT good, youll know it real quick and be able to muckit safely, and if it IS good, its pretty damn fragile, and you cant afford to give a free card here. I mean seeing those guys' hands is a perfect example of why you NEEDED to bet this, inspite of the scary card- Look at how many river cards destroy your hand...Any club, any 7, 8, or any J. Now its true they had some of each others outs, but at LEAST 10 cards in the deck killed you, and probly more (Just took a final- head... hurts...numbers, bad...)

Now, if you were bound and determined to see the showdown with this hand, and you knew that you were not going to lay it down anyway, then your best off checking and calling. However, i wouldnt recommend this type of play-- if your wanna beat this game like a red headed stepshild, ya gotta get over your deepest, darkest fear (MY deepest darkest fear anyway!) which is obviously FOLDING THE BEST HAND! Whenever i fold a good hand to a turn CR bluff and lose a big pot i feel like a god damn retard. But, in a few hours, when im 1k up from when it happened, its all just water under the bridge.

So thats my advie on this hand, for what its worth...

Ya know, i never really payed attention to my BB/100 stat too much. I can tell you over the last 53 hours i have won 3800 playing 10/20, which is about 3.5 bb/hr, which is close to 4 bb/100. I feel i have been playing a pretty decent game- i am running good but am not rushing by any means...I have had my share of decent sized swings during this time.

But, i dont really have an answer for you as far as what your win rate SHOULD be. All i can say is in 53 hours i turned my 1k buyin into 5k, and i am not at all unhappy with this winrate, because thats close to 4k in basically one week of playing. HOnestly, i dont beleive in looking at your bb/100 figure, i think alot more in terms of weekly/monthly income, and keep it all in perspective with respect to the earnings of your average job, etc.

I really dont know what other peoples figures are in terms of BBs/100 hands, or BBs/hour/table- I dont many SH players that really keep track of this stuff, as i really dont that much. For me, i find that 4 is probably the absolute highest bb/100 i have ever acheived for any length of time, and subsequent to that, i had an abolutely horriffic run, lowering my BB/100 to barely 2.0...And after putting my game back in order, and rebuying with a different account (hence why PT stats are starting over) i have maintained close to 4bb/100 for a whopping 53 hours of play, which can hardly be considered a dispositive sample.

Sorry i dont have the answer for you on that one--id love to hear from some other SH
limit players and what kind of numbers they have managed to sustain. I cant say for sure, but i have a feeling from watching certain players that there are some players out there that sustain fairly higher Bb/100's than i do, but i dont have much more than 1k hands on any one player in PT, so i dont really have a representative sample.

My advice is that if you want to start winnin decent money, go up to 5/10 SH on party. Problem is that if you are new to SH, you dont want to go there right away - i started there, and made some decent $'s but had lots of swings and ended up broke (though i did cashout a lot and pay bills, etc too--i didnt have PT then so i have no idea what my #s looked like, or if i was even ahead or not...)

Just curious, do you have a job/steady income? What do you gamble on?

Hmm...
Job , No .
Steady income .... not exactly... or at least you can say not steady!
I deal mostly with import/ export , with my own company,
that leaves me with a lot of free time, especialy now ... and until Late june when my business comes back to live.
and until then my head is into poker

I am not new to the 6 handed tables, Im playing there for about 3.5 months...
I would like to play the 5-10, but I want to be sure I will survive the normal swing.
So for now I dont play 5-10 on a regular basis.

Do you think Party has a comfortable crowd , for the 5-10 tables ? may be ill give it a shot there.

Hi MecosKing,

The 1-2 is realy a 'joke' my bb/100 there is about 30
and I show a very good profit at the 2-4 also,
at the 3-6 I had a great run at first, but then saw it all go out the window...
now I alsmot never sit at 3-6 , I don't know why, but i just dont do well there...

How much do you sit with at the 5-10 tables ?
I like to sit in the 2-4 with 10 bb (40$) and if I lose it I dont stay at the table,
cause some times the table just has a read on me, and its hard to gian lost grounds,
So I go to another and start over, but I know 10bb isn't the optimal stack, so how much do u use?

a very good friend of mine plays the 5-10 (6h), but although he has some amazing ups, his downs are even more amazing....
he can make 2k in 3 days, and then lose them in 2...
so obviously I am not trying to imitate him

apologies for hijacking here... but just found this thread...

I love SH limit - just discovered it really. I play the 1/2, 5 max tables on paradise...so take this with a huge grain of salt - I only have about 400 hands at this level.

great advice in this thread. don't loosen up to 50%+ VPIP and be AGGRESSIVE postflop! u will be amazed [or maybe not] what ppl will call u down with... also dont overvalue suited connectors - 87s looses its luster SH lim, b/c u cant maximize your return like u could in NL or full ring.

also note that some players will come and play EVERY SINGLE HAND until they bleed off their stack. love'em. love 'em. they r the best!

be prepared when u raise preflop with AQ and lose to 68o [who called u cold]... but over time SH seems like it may be a goldmine - esp. $ per hour.

have fun...buckle up - b/c its a wild ride.

m9Man--

Yeah truer words were never spoken. 68o is a fave of many of the 50% VPIPers on the SH tables. The strange thing is that i have seen an increasing amount of people that are 50% or close to that seem to be winning players over time. Although obviously, i dont have more than 1k hands on any one player i dont think, but still... Oftentimes, the players that will pretty much always bet when checked to end up coming out ahead...

That in fact, is a strategy that i have to try to employ more often. I am seeing it a fair amount on the SH tables these days- maybe it was always there and i didnt notice it-- but there are players that dont SEEM that aggressive in terms of PFA, so if you look at thier numbers they arent that intimidating at all. Some are in the low 1's, many not over 2.
These are numbers that i consider to be suboptimal...However i dont think they are particularly telling because what these players wlil do is they will flat call the flop-an action that, even if you make up for it with a bet or a raise later, will reduce your PFA--and then bet the turn if checked to, and (possibly?) muck if bet into.

The obvious way to punish these players is to CR them, but the problem is that you still gotta catch cards to do that, and catchin cards aint always easy.

So, what i think i am seeing here is a breed of player that i hadnt realized existed before. PT would call him a LAP, but he isnt exactly that, because he bets when checked to, so hes more of a LAG masking as a LAP- because of his high percentage of flat calls, he doesnt draw all that much attention to himself-- And, because you look at him and think he's not overly aggressive, when you check your ace high nothing into him and he bets, you tend to want to fold it because he's not ostensibly LAGgy to the point where youd want to keep him honest with an Ahi on a busy board. And so my theory goes- these guys will steal pot after pot...and make up for thier high VPIP by giving a few beats here and there, having hands of thier own here and there, and generally picking up the pot when no one else has a hand they consider worthy of showing down.

Mind you, this is just a theory i have, based on my observing certain players, and watching them win way more pots than i think anyone could win, if they won only when they had a halfway decent hand (Like say, 2nd pair or 3rd pair by the river, or better)

I made my entire broll playin SH though, and i didnt play like that at all- i was much more of a LAG than a LAP--so maybe i just feel this way because i am having to fold one good hand after another because i cant seem to catch cards the way i used to, and/or am taking beats alot worse than i used to (my old acct over 35k hands, aces are an 82% winner, Kings are like 80, and even QQ is in the mid 70s- compared to recently, AA 50%, QQ 65% KK 75%...)

But anyways, its something to think about---Harmon says it when she writes about SH holdem in SS2 - the player than picks up the pot when others miss will be the winner in the end...

Anyways sorry bout the rant. WHen i cashout of poker and i cant play poker, instead of studyin im more likely to write about poker. Oh well.

very true, Mecos.

here are my SH [5max] 1/2 lim numbers - just started this [376 hands]... looks like i maybe too tight pf. and not enough CRing

VPIP 21.77%
PreFR 13.17%
PostFA 2.30 [on the flop its 3.67]

I think may raising requirements are very similar to yours.

I have only CR'd once! eeek. what would you estimate as your Ww/oSD% when u check raise ? i know my PT number of total bet/raise/cr Ww/oSD is 29.55% on the flop...

but again I dont have enough data here to be valid yet.