DON'T EVER accept DEFEAT (until your last chip is gone)

by **AdamtheExpert** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:28 pm

Ok, someone wanted great poker stories, so this is a combination poker story, and lesson for the day.

We've all heard the phraze "chip and a chair" . . . . But how many of you, believe it.

Maybe you all just think it's an urban legand, or something like that.

Back in September, or last year, ATE was playing a 55 buck multi table, on Party.

With 50 players to go, I took a bad beat (don't remember the details,) and found myself down to 3500 chips. The blinds were at 500-1000, and about to go up. Average stack, was over 12,000 DIDN't look good!!

Maybe as well just walk away, and take my 50 place money, right?

Wrong. Waited until UTG, played a KQsuited, won. Continued from there, eventually getting down to 5 players, with a 180,000 stack.

That's when the funniest hand of my life, occured.

With the blinds at 2000-4000, I opened UTG for the minimum raise, with KK. The player in the cuttoff seat, suddenly goes all in, for 120,000. Everyone else folded.

Now, to give you a complete picture, let's go over the stack sizes, and payouts.

ATE 180K

Raiser
120K

Short stack
80
short stack
80

other 100 or so

The first place prize, was 7300, fifth was 1200 and second was 4300. I don't recall what the othe's were.

So, ok hold 'em fans . . . . WHAT THE HECK DO YOU DO.

To anyone who thinks this is an automatic call, Well GRASSHOPPER, you ain't ready to play a big event yet.

Hey, dont think I'm trying to insult you, just want to DRIVE in the point, that there are NO automatic calls, In ANY hold em tournament before the flop

INCLUDING WITH ACES

I'm sure many of you have read the Sklansky book, outlining the times that you may elect to throw aces away, and ATE can certainly think of a few more.

Anyway, what do we want to consider, when contimplating the call?

(1) The likelyhood that my KK was beaten

(2) Chances that opponent could win, if he had less than AA

(3) Possibility of being tied

(4) Chances for my KK to win, if against AA

(5) Chip status, if lose the hand

(6) chip status, if win the hand.

(7) Playing style, of opponents

(8) Playing style, of vast majority of opponents, if current opponent is unknown

(9) Perception of the image that raiser had, of ME

(10) Perception of opponent's read, based on the size of my raise

%^@$%^@%^@#$^ I guess eventually I'll just give my damn book away, one post at a time. Oh well.

Whew!! This is quite a mouthful, and if you thought NLHE was going to be a no brainer,

Well, Subway's always hiring!!

Anyway, I'm not going to spend an hour, going into the all the detail of how I made my decision, based on those ten points to ponder.

That'd take about an hour, and a REALLY long post.

Let's just say that I called. Going into the river, I was SHOUTing "no ACE No ACE!!

(At that time, Party poker did not reveal the hands, until the river)

NO ACE NO ACE

WHOOOPS, the guy had a JACK FOUR, offsuit.

Ha ha, totally blew his chance for a bigger prize (as second place in chips)

On an INSANE bluff, with jack four

Meanwhile, I was worried out of my MIND, that Party poker would think that we were CHEATING.

Oh, no my friends, even with more chips than the other three combined, I was NOT happy, until I got my check.

Oh yeah, I got first.

What a day.

Went to tell my brother, and got recruited to deal a big pot limit game.

Just what I wanted to do, after winning 7300 . . . . DEAL!1

Yuck, I hate dealing, when I have money.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some information about what to think of, when contimplating a big call.

Sorry I didn't go over the thought process, more completely, but that really would have taken a long time.

by **tetsuo** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:32 pm

Great post, Adam! I really enjoyed reading it.

by **IAmAnIdiot** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:34 pm

Nice write up Adam.
I was playing a $5 mtt on ub catching no cards at all, managed to survive with a few steals and big bluffs, anyway the blinds are at 800\400 im just getting blinded and antied away. I dont beleive in panicking just because my stack is x times the blinds, i think that holding out for a hand even if it means getting blinded out is better than going all in with a marginal hand. Anyway Im in the bb with about 780 in chips "all in" get q10 which holds up, gives me a nice small pot with the antes and sb`s call takes me to about 2k still nothing compared to the table leader on aboout 35k, no panicking just wait for the right hand got that upto about 11k got pkt a`s, go all in get one caller with 6`s got an ace on the flop so i got up to about 26k theres about 43 left out of 400 i get pkt 4`s in lp, i raise the pot, one guy raises me all in i called, he had AK rivered his ace to take me out in 42nd 3 of the money, what little it would have been.
Your point about a chip and a chair, if i had played my 4`s a little more carefull i would have gone from being all in in the BB to a good finish in the money

I dont mind being short stacked, confidence in my card choice as short stack, and the fact that most people treat a short stack bet as a desperate bet and give it no respect, makes me confident that 75% of the time i will recover. Ive lost count of the times i have been seriously shortstacked especially in sngs and recovered to win or finish in the money.

Cheers
Idiot

by **t-bone** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:02 am

by **Felonius_Monk** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:37 am

by **Mad Genius** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:56 am

by **t-bone** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:36 am

by **flintsword** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 pm

Hi Adam,

Great story!. My story did not have such a great ending. Last weekend was the first time every that I placed in the money in every tournament I played. One of those tournaments I had one of those boring bad beats which I will not repeat, which crippled my stack to 5,000 from 45,000+. I had, at most, two cycles before being blinded off but waited before going all in in MP (middle position for some new readers here ...) with AQ offsuit and getting two callers.

It is so critical to maintain your mental outlook, whether it is a result of losing a lot of chips or just not getting any cards with which to move with.

I rebuilt my stack from virtually nothing.

Down to twenty three people, I have JJ UTG and raise, ... and get two callers, and one reraise, followed by the player to my right going all in with a re-re-raise.

So here I am and I ***know*** that my Jacks are dogfood. The two calls are only potentials. The reraise already indicates a QQ, KK, AA, AK type of hand. The all-in clinched the deal for me.

What was going through my mind: "Considering the player to my right had been caught in a few bluffs and had played totally nuts all tournament long, I could not put him on AA absolutely." "The first reraise could be due to that player's short stack and is not necessarily a premium hand. The player to my right may well be raising to isolate a short stack all-in with a less than premium hand." etc. etc.

Readers, what you are reading above is known as a "rationalization". In short, I went from **knowing*** that I was beat holding 'only a good hand', ... to convincing myself that JJ was covered in diamonds and my right hand player always raised with junk. This happens rarer to me these days, but when it happens, it is soooooo important to go over it and really unearth the thinking that causes rationalization.

I did call and the player on my right had the aces that T.J. Cloutier predicted in his books stating that a reraise is virtually guaranteed to be AA in better poker. The Jacks got squashed and not too surprisingly I ended up with only three or four times my entry fee money to this Paradise tournament, instead of making the final table and slugging it out.

So, what did I miss? What was the key clue that would have steered my mind back to reality? Rationalization is not only arguements convincing yourself of something that is not true. Rationalization also involves the convenient glossing over of particular facts that you need to be aware of to make a correct decision.

The key fact I ignored that immediately puts the raise in the AA category is the fact that it was out of position. The player to my right was in the BB and did not care what the players downstream would do, ... because he had the goods. Previous bluffs had been executed in better position.

ATE writes down a long list of considerations before deciding to call with KK. Better list than mine by the way, so now I am actually thinking about buying your book when it comes out (but I need lots of convincing, so don't stop posting ...).

Before the result comes the process.

Better processes lead to better results.

Even low on chips you can apply good poker processes and often the same processes that built up your chip position before the bad beat, ... will rebuild it.

Sorry for the long post and I hope somebody got something out of it.[b]

by **eDgar** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:33 pm

by **Atorvastatin** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:49 am

Adam,

No one, and I mean no one tells a poker story on a forum like you do. I hope you stick around BTP. As a new member I have really enjoyed reading your articles, posts, etc.

Remember, the price for a lesson from you may be cheap, but many of us are just starting out and not ready intellectually or financially for a lesson from you. Thanx for your contributions even if I can't thank you with cash.

DON'T EVER accept DEFEAT (until your last chip is gone)

DON'T EVER accept DEFEAT (until your last chip is gone)

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