I've been reading Monk's articles for a while now, and I'm not new to Omaha, I just hadn't played much pot limit before. Long story short, I got roped into playing PLO at a home game last week and I really enjoyed it. So I've been playing on the Gaming Club a lot since then and doing very well, but I don't know that I'm really maximizing value and winning as I should. Here's some hands from last night, .2/.4 PLO/8 at the Gaming Club, let me know what you think.

Hand 1 : I haven't played many hands up until this point as I've been cold carded. I've continually re-bought to keep the max in my stack for when I do get the chance to double up. The table is very loose and passive pre flop, with any raises being minimum raises to sweeten the pot. I'm dealt on the button. Everyone in front of me limps, I call, the SB minimum raises and everyone calls. Family pot! The flop is . Everyone checked to the player to my right who minimum bet, I bet the pot, and three people called, two of which were relatively short stacked and would be forced all in by another pot sized bet on the turn and the other had me covered by about $30. The turn was a brick jack, checked to me and I bet the pot again, one player folded and other two called, including the big stack. The river was a miracle giving me two way nuts and I went all in when checked to. The big stack called and I got three quarters when he showed A-2-3-10.

My thoughts on the hand : Obviously that was a great flop for me, and the end result was good. However, without the miracle river, I'm the one getting 1/4, so I don't know that my play was particularly good. I think my flop bet is mandatory and serves a few purposes. First, it lets me make another, more substantial bet on the turn if I hit and second, it may buy me a free card on the turn if I wish to take it (Which I probably should have but didn't). At the time, I thought my turn bet was ok. It really came down to the type of hand my opponent would check/call with and what they might think I have. If they think I have a high hand, two pair or set, then they might check/call with a worse low, like 2-4 or a 3-5 with double gut draw. If they think I have a low, they may check call with two pair or even TPTK. Both of these situations are positive EV for me to put money in with, as I have half the pot locked up and am free-rolling for a scoop. Really the only hand I was in trouble to was the one that he showed, though I guess I should have assumed the worse case scenario and slowed down.

Hand 2 : My stacks around $60 at this point as I haven't played many hands since the previous one. In late position I'm dealt and limp behind a few others. The blinds check and we hit a flop of . The players check around to me and I bet half the pot, which folds off everyone but one of the blinds. The turn was the and he comes out with a pot sized bet, of which I just call. The river was a brick low and he bets the pot again. I come over the top of him for another pot sized bet and he sets himself all in. I call and win when he shows Q-10-X-X.

My thoughts : Another phenomenal flop, but I wasn't sure how to play it. In all honesty, this is the first non pot sized bet I've ever made in PLO. When checked to, I didn't know how much to bet. I didn't want to fold everybody off and I wanted to give somebody with a 10, flush, or straight draw the chance to hit. I almost checked but remember reading Monk saying that free cards are death in PLO. I envisioned a 10, king, or ace hitting the turn and losing to a bigger boat or quads, so I bet half the pot. On the turn, I wasn't the slightest bit worried about losing the hand to quads or a straight flush, I really just wanted to make sure I got his whole stack. Heads up, I thought the call was ok, as only a 10 would kill my hand, and based on his hand, I don't think he would have gotten away had I come over the top of him there. I just figured by waiting until the river, I'd be able to pop him after he made another pot sized bet and he'd be committed to the hand and unable to fold.

Hand 3 : This is the only hand I didn't like how I played. In EP I get and raise the pot behind two limpers. 5 people in total call to see a flop of . Checked to me and I make a pot sized bet. One player folds and another bets the pot behind me. It folds around to me and I have a decision to make. I have him covered by a lot, but it's like $24 to call or I can set him all in for another $13. I decide to raise and put him all in. He calls. The turn was a 7, but the river was a 9 and he won the pot with K-Q-8-4, no hearts.

My thoughts : That seemed like a great flop for my hand. When I run the odds on Cardplayer, it rates me as a healthy favorite on the flop. I had 12 nut outs with hearts and jacks plus runner-runner low to salvage half the pot. I've only lost one buy in since I've been playing PLO, but it was this exact same situation, two aces, nut flush draw, and runner-runner low vs. two pair that didn't improve. Am I overplaying this hand? Should I slow down when popped back? If he had a deeper stack, I guess I could flat call and see how the turn played out before committing anymore, but in this case since he had such little left compared to the pot size, I felt I had to get it in. Thoughts?

Drade

I'm going to only respond to hand 1 for now since I don't have much time:

1. If the stacks are short - getting allin as early as possible with 3+ others is not going to be horribly bad (in fact might be quite good):
1a. If you are quartered for low, with 3 others in, you are breaking even (minus the rake - but that's negligible).
1b. If you aren't quartered for low - obviously you are in strong position.
1c. For high, you have a lot of nut high outs (most of which would counterfeit the hands of your opponents - most likely). In this respect, you should get your money in now, while they still have a good, but breakable hand.

2. If the stacks are much larger - you have to be more conscious about the number of others calling in on the pot. I would be much more concerned with only getting 1/4 of the pot, but as long as your kept at least 3 others in (preferably 4), you shouldn't fare terribly - especially with your redraw.

Also, there is a bit of an important detail about that turned jack. If it put any sort of flush draw out - this is important (not in this specific case, because the stacks were shorter). If it truly was a brick (and rainbows the board), then nevermind - but I'd prefer to be explicit about it.

Lastly, the exact stack sizes would be nice to know here. As I'm not familiar with GC's max buyin - it could vastly change how I would approach this hand. Take this for example - assuming you have the max buyin, or close to it - with a 100 big blind max, you'd have $40. If he had you outchipped by $30 - he's got $70 - which is a solid stack.

However, let's look at it from two other perspectives. In a 200 big blind max, you'd have $80 and he'd have $110 - not too helpful to know his skill. In a 50 though - like Party - I think you've got to pay attention to him

/d

I'm not an experienced O/8 player but I have a question about hand 1. Since he has the 2,3 and 5, shouldn't he not raise the full pot in order to get more people to call since his low can't be counterfitted? Should he maybe just call or raise less to keep people in the pot and wait to make his nut straight to push?

well briachek - this is why it is important to know the stack sizes. If the sizes are inconsequential, getting everyone's money in now would be good. However, if you are going to have to work to get all of their money in - and then you might get quartered - you have to play it a little more cautiously because while you have an uncounterfeitable low, you still don't yet have a high hand.

/d

At the gaming club, they give you 100 times the BB as the max. So I had right around $40 and the other big stack had around $70. The short stacks in the hand had $10 to $12 when the hand started.

Also for clarification, the brick jack did put a flush out. I meant to include this the first time, but it was the . I remember trying to quickly deduce whether I thought that was good or not. I did have two baby diamonds, but I don't put much faith in a 5 high flush too often, though shorthanded in a pot that I intend to show down anyway, I remember thinking that it gave me some additional outs. At showdown, I don't remember exactly what suits the big stack had, but I know he did not have a diamond draw.

Drade

Well, in light of the new information, I would definitely push it hard. For the side pot between you and the big stack, you have to realize that you are losing money unless you hit a hand. Since you can hit any diamond (even two babies is good heads-up on a backdoor draw), a deuce, three, 6 to take 3/4s and a five to take 1/2 (1/4 quarter each of high and low), it is up to you to make sure you get the money in there with the right odds.

Hey drade,

Nice to have you here!

On hand 1 I would think that raising the pot on the flop was a little aggressive unless it was the sort of table where you could guarantee three or four callers on marginal hands; there's something like a 1/3 chance there's another 23 out and so you'd be splitting low, and you "only" have 10 nut outs to high all of which can be broken on the river. I think your best chance of getting paid is keeping it cheap (maybe making pot-building raises yourself) until/unless you catch a high, and then pushing it. There's no reason to force out people on 25 for low or very marginal highs (as you need to hit your nut high anyway to win that end). On the other hand, with 3 callers it seems the table was overly loose and so a pot bet was not bad; your hand figures to be a money favourite against more than 2 opponents.

On the turn again I could go either way, but we've already ascertained that your opponents are loose-passive, so I see no need to bet the whole pot here unless you really think the situation has changed and your opponents may fold. On the other hand, it seems likely you have at least a quarter of the pot sewn up, and you do have a good draw to scoop, so why not bet it into 4 opponents? I don't think this is too bad either. You should be more worried here about getting sandwiched between someone else with nut low and a player with some sort of high (e.g. a set, two pair) and losing 3/4 of the pot, then losing to one individual player. This would be the point in the hand where I either made a pot building bet (assuming you had 1/4 tied up and a good draw to scoop against 4 players) or checked. You don't really want to force out worse lows or dead money high-only hands like two pair, you want them in the pot, unless you make all three opponents fold (which is unlikely). There is some quite complex maths here which I can't be bothered to work out but suffice to say your hand will fair better here by putting in 1/3 pot raise and getting called in three spots than by putting in a full pot raise and getting called in only one.

On the river get all in of course. If you miss you should check it down (or maybe bet small) because you're liable to be 1/4ed.

Hand 2 I like the way you played it. On the flop I would bet a little less than 1/2 pot I think but you're unlikely to get paiid by anything other than a T. I don't like checking here so much because you don't want to give a free card to KK or AA (although chances of those are slim) and you do want to build a decent pot to win against a ten. Turn and river you played perfectly IMO.

Hand 3 you could raise or merely call this hand, it could be troublesome from EP in a game where no-one folds (though by that same token it figures to be much better than average; just don't get too attached to those aces for high!). I don't mind the way you played the flop, you've flopped a premium one and can only be scared of QQ or KK, both of which you're not far off even money against. Checking or betting is fine here IMO, depending on how many callers you're liable to get. On this table i would sway towards betting (you may get people fishing in with a lot of marginal draws, given the looseness observed so far). On a very tight table I would bet too as a semi-bluff steal. On a more marginal table, where you're liable to be called in maybe one spot or two by two pair/wrap/set type hands, perhaps playing a little more conservativel is fine. You can't go too far wrong with this big flop though, you have an overpair, backdoor nut low draw, nut flush draw and gutshot nut straight draw, so even if you bet and there's a raise you can call quite comfortably.

When only one player raises you back you do indeed have a decision to make; however, I think you made the wrong one. We can be 95% sure he has either KK, QQ or maybe KQ here, and thus if the turn brings a Q or K (and perhaps even a 2) you're drawing dead. You should've saved the last $13 and merely called, knowing you can escape with that $13 intact if the killer card turns. If it's still live at this point, or if you hit your big draw, you can comfortably check-call or move in yourself.

In summary you are not overplaying your hand on the first bet, but once someone raises you back you can put him very accurately on the sort of hand he had (more likely KK or QQ) and then play accordingly. You are of course a favourite against KQ and so I can't really fault you for getting all in, but remember that you're the one who has to hit a card to win, and also there are a few cards that kill your hand stone dead on the turn, so there's no harm in just calling and saving that last bet for the next street.

Hope this helps!

Monk
xxxxx