Just like my last post about the Aces a few minutes ago, this hand was originally posted in the bad beats section, but may have some merit as a strategical discussion if we change a few things. Lets make this a decent sized tournament money-wise where you know that you are playing against some good solid players who have the ability to think. Let's play both sides of the fence.

You are in MP1 at a 9 handed table with 3080 in chips. One player has 2x your stack and 2 others have about the same amount. Everyone else has less. You pick up [Ks].
Blinds are 75/150 w/ no antes yet.

UTG limps in and for some inexplicable reason you decide to min-raise. This part is not debatable. You just had a brain cramp and did this for some reason and know you made a mistake. (I know your going to say that not many self-respecting players will do this, especially after someone has already entered the pot, but let's just say it happened).

BB (1765 before the hand started) and UTG (2900 before the hand started) limper both call. There is 975 in the pot.

Flop is [8d][Js]. Looks like something that very well could have hit limpers. Definite straight draw, but no flush draw at least.

BB bets 300, UTG folds, and you consider the possibilities of 2 pair or the made straight and just call. (I know you should have raised, but let's just say it was another brain fart and this is the position you put yourself in.)

1575 in the pot and the turn is . BB moves all-in for his remaining 1165. Uh-oh. Now any 8, 2 pair, or the straight beat me. Can I lay down my Kings here? Do I?



Don't look below until you've answered the above...........















Let's turn it around.
You are BB w/ [Ts] in the above situation. You will gladly see a flop 3 way against a min-raise.

You have 1465 after you make the call. Same flop and you bet out 300 because you think this is a scary flop that may have missed the raiser. He calls so you know he has something.

The turn is the same and you have 1165 left. You know your opponent is a good player that has the ability to make tough laydowns. Great card to semi-bluff AI w/ if you are still not sure what he has? Better or worse to semi-bluff here if you know he has KK, but is good enough to lay it down in the right situation?

well this becomes very difficult because of the way you forced us to play this hand. This is the exact reason why you don't play this hand this way because you get no information about the opponents hand and because of that, you must call the all in (2 pair hands no longer beat you as you said).

I dont lay down my kings and i should be surprised when i push in the bb with T7s and someone doesn't fold because if they play their hand like this, they probably can't fold it. The only way i fold my KK is possibly if the Jack paired on the turn.

i haven't looked at the answer, but if i make TWO 'tard moves, i'll either push and pray (kind of hoping that I end the misery) or fold out of general principle (deserving losing the pot for being an idiot TWICE).

i wouldn't even think about trying to "make a read", because i screwed the pooch on getting any kind of useful info on that front.