I don't have a read on this guy as he's new to the table.


Stage #366342890: Holdem Normal $15/$30 - 2006-05-22 21:45:21 (ET)
Table: PALMDALE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - PIMODA ($410 in chips)
Seat 7 - XASTON ($852 in chips)
Seat 4 - MONEY904 ($621 in chips)
XASTON - Posts small blind $10
MONEY904 - Posts big blind $15
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to XASTON [3d Ad]
PIMODA - Folds
XASTON - Raises $20 to $30
MONEY904 - Raises $30 to $45
XASTON - Raises $30 to $60
MONEY904 - Calls $15
*** FLOP *** [Qc 2d 10d]
XASTON - Bets $15
MONEY904 - Calls $15
*** TURN *** [Qc 2d 10d]
XASTON - Bets $30
MONEY904 - Raises $60 to $60
XASTON - Raises $60 to $90
MONEY904 - Calls $30
*** RIVER *** [Qc 2d 10d 5c]
XASTON - Bets $30



I think pretty much every street is debateable (although the flop bet, after capping pre flop, is pretty automatic/standard, however the pre flop cap wasn't exactly automatic.)

Well, this is quite a hand. Since no ones taken a shot this one yet, i spose i will.

The preflop cap is somewhat mizorly, but in shortgames, especially really short games like 3-4 handed, this move is pretty common and pretty good.

After the PF 4 bet, the flop bet is obvious.

I dont mind the turn reraise, since if he was goin for the ole free showdown play with a hand like 88, he may fold, or if he was just makin a move with a draw or AK or something, then you set yourself up to win the hand on the river if he misses.

The river bet is sorta MEH though, i think...I dont think you could legitimately call it a value bet even if your ahead, because him callin with a worse hand is pretty damn hard after that turn threebet--and him mucking a worse hand is pretty unlikely also, after he put inthat last bet on the turn and theres like 1000000000BB in thepot, im pretty sure he's seeing the showdown with any hand that has any sort of showdown valuewhatever.

I think i check/call the river, hoping that if i have him beat, that i induce a bluff and if im not beat, hope he checks behind and save a bet. Like i said, i sorta doubt he's folding a better hand here after calling that turn threebet. As piers likes to say, id 'check that river for value'

I don't like the pre-flop cap at all, even 3-handed. The only way you should be continuing with this hand (the only real way you can hope to win) is to nail a flush, or to be fortunate enough to pair their ace and their kicker.

--Of course, I don't play SH, so it could also be that ace-high can win this pot, but it just doesn't compute in my FR brain.

You flop a flush draw, and I like the lead-out. I like less that he just smooth called you.

On the turn, you lead, he raises, and you 3-bet. I despise this play. He waited until the turn to show strength and tried to pick off a bluff. You're drawing to a diamond here, and if you miss (you did), you're pretty much tossing away $90, unless this guy's a COMPLETE idiot...which he might very well be.

Hands like this are the reason I just don't get shorthanded poker. It seems to me to just be a card catching contest, and a test to see who has the balls to bet more with junk to make the other fold.

Live, I can understand playing SH. Online, it just seems like pushing the raise button until somebody folds or the hand goes to showdown and the luckiest player wins.

Well, because of the cap preflop, and with the 3-bet on the turn, it looks to me like you probably should bet that river to continue through with the bluff.

Have you seen a sizeable % of players who call a 3-bet on the turn and then fold to a single bet on the river? Then maybe this play is worth it somewhere.

There is probably an argument to be made about saving this particular type of play until you've played a few hands with him and he sees it as a strong move. And waiting until you see what a 3-bet PF and turn raise means by him.

Trust me tibs, the PF cap is not that bad. Yes, A3s is gonna be pretty far behind here alot more often than not, and even if the guy has somethin like KJs, i dont think A3 is that far ahead anyways, although im terrible with percents, so maybe A3 is significantly ahead there, i dunno. But the thing about the OOP cap HU is that for one SB it drastically increases his chances of winning the pot later. For example, if the other guy has AQ and the flop comes down K89 xas wins the pot. If the guys got 88 and the flop comes down KQ, then xas may very well win the pot. mizors in 3-4 handed cames pull this crap all the time, it basically shifts the initiative to the OOPer and makes the guy in position the one that has to actually catch a card or fold rather than the OOPer that got 3 bet by the guy in position.


Of course theres always the issue of will you make more by doing this than you would save by not doing this? Thats a legit question that i dont know the answer to. All i can say is i have to deal with this shit constantly when i play 3-4 handed LHE, and its a real pain in the ass.

As for the turn 3bet, i can definitely see why you despise that one and without a read i probly wouldnt have done that either- but it really is the only way to make a marginal hand fold HU--

This hand boils down to a matter of style. Personally, i only put in the OOP cap when (1) I have a hand that justifies it, like TT or better, or AK or else with some random holdings if a mizor(s) is/are three betting my raises too often. More often than not I will spend that extra bet by CRing the flop, that i think he may have missed, because i think its alot more credible to say 'okay, you three bet me PF, but i hit this flop, your beaten' than cappin itup PF and firing all the way, basically saying 'ive got a set or an overpair', because sets and OPs are pretty uncommon but an SB raisor hittin someething on a flop of 894 or T73 against a BB three bettor is not that uncommon at all.

The real bitch of this though is the fact that you have to be able to look at a flop that totally misses you and put in a CR/turn bet just because you think he missed also,whereas the PF cap makes all your postflop decisions alot easier--

Anyways i think theres a thread on this somewhere that i actually started back when i considered myself a decent enough player to actually talk about the game...

I agree that the hand was played very well for deception's sake, both for the current hands, and for the hand you'll play an hour from now.

Like I said, keep in mind that the advice is from a FR player who just can't see the EV of capping A3s pre-flop.

But, also as Dan said, if you play the hand that way, you HAVE to lead the river to keep up with the bluff.

So did you take it down?

I felt like I swelled the pot so damn much that I couldn't fold, and a bet would get value from AK that would check behind. However I guess enough hands check behind, that beat me, that make up for the theoretical lost value against AK. I was really undecided as to whether to bet-3bet the turn or go for the check raise. Anyway he had JJ and took it down.