OK, so I was playing some 50NL on empire last night to get back into the swing of the NL thing after a couple of months of mostly omaha, and trialling pokertracker which i've only just got round to adding to my game.

Had a generally bad session, some bad luck and a couple of misplayed hands (which, thanks to PT, i was able to go back through and sift out my mistakes). However, this one hand was bothering me as I'm not sure whether I misplayed it badly or just happened to run into a dominating situation with a decent hand. With the tiny stacks on party/empire, sometimes it's difficult to tell.

I have $50 or so 3 off the button with JJ. It's folded to me, table is typical (some looser players, no real maniacs but no particularly hot players either). I raise to $5. It is folded round to the SB who calls. Heads up. He is a totally new player, I have no stats or read on him and he has just joined the table. I have not seen him do anything unusual so far, the impression I get in his first few hands is one of general passivity, but it's really too early to say.

The flop brings T84 rainbow, pretty decent for my jacks. He checks to me, I bet the pot (about $11). He smooth calls, which has me a little worried for a set, but he could also have something like AT, J9 or even A8 or overcards, I just don't know. Flop brings a nice card for me, another 4. There are now two clubs on board. He checks to me again, pot is about $30-some, I have about $35 left. I decide to bet $25 (pot committed, clearly, but I'm happy to see him calling AT or whatever... in retrospect yeah, if I was going to bet, should probably be my stack). He puts in my last $10, I call and he shows QQ to take it down. I know with the tiny party/empire stacks it's hard if not impossible to get a "read" mid-hand against an unknown player (two bets and you're virtually all in), but should I have played this more cautiously? Dropping an overpair on the turn here seems horribly weak but after his smooth call on the flop, looks a bit threatening doesn't it? But then, it is empire....

For his part, I think he played this pretty poorly. He has to raise either the preflop or flop streets, and gives me a nice free 6-outer on the flop if I had AK (with which I'd have made exactly the same bets). Anyways, how do you guys approac situations like this? I am currently leaning towards merely limping with JJ, and am starting to do so on the SB or in EP, but here I was in late MP and felt that raising was the way to go. Anyways, food for thought.

Monk
xxxxx

I would not mind losing that pot. In general, I do not think you should raise or re raise early position with Jacks. If he raises and you call, it would be the same. That board dictates you protect the Jacks early. I would have been all in by fourth but I am wary of Jacks.

I like your preflop raise with JJ in late position. Early position I sometimes limp in depending on the table texture.
With out a read on your opponent, I would have been allin on the turn. At the 50NL tables on party, its a profitable play against an unknown.
There are quite a few players at the $50 tables that I would slow down against. If a good player calls my $5 dollar raise, and calls my flop pot bet, I maybe in check/fold mode.
A good player will normally not call $5 preflop raise out of position, without a pocket pair or AK. Once he calls your pot bet on the flop, you have to either put him on a set or QQ.

I'd have lost my stack here. Jacks are my my nemesis, on those occasions when there are no overcards, the chances are that you'll be called by a top pair with inside straight draw that catches a second pair on the turn. Whenever I get a flop where think I should be happy with my jacks it never seems to work out.

Pocket tens i profit on, jacks I lose on, guess I push too far.

Molina

I may be wrong here, but I don't know that your opponent played the hand all that badly. He has to like that flop just as much as you do and you've shown that you like your hand with your pot bet on the flop. In this situation my thinking would be that if he gives you a strong re-raise here he pot commits himself and loses to A-A or K-K, and if he just calls off his stack he could lose to A-A or K-K BUT he also traps someone with a top pair holding, or someone who is betting with position because he has these hands dominated but they would probably fold to a reraise. The only trouble I'd have when making this play is that he is out of position, which puts him in a tough spot on the turn. You hate to give A-K a free card if that is what you were betting, and you hate to see an A or K fall on the river, but if you lead out here warning bells will be going off in your opponent's head.

I was kinda curious why you open raised 5x the BB in late position actually. It seems like it is hard enough not to pot commit yourself at the $50 tables as it is, large preflop raises will only make it worse. When I played on there I usually open raised making it $4 to go. Not that big a difference but 5x the BB is a little larger than a standard 3x-4x the BB so I was wondering why you chose that. In another topic Iceman recommended to me to bet half-three quarters of the pot when I flopped an overpair on a rainbow board because half the pot is enough that you are only giving your opponent 3-1 on their call, which will make a call with a flush/straight draw incorrect, but might get you a re-raise from someone holding top pair while you have them dominated. If you open raise to $4 and then bet $5 into the pot on the flop with the pot at $9.50 now you've only invested 10% of your stack preflop and on the flop and still have a little wiggle room to get away from the hand on the turn. If he smooth calls your $5 on the flop you could throw out a $15 bet on the turn (3/4 the pot) and be able to fold if you are re-raised and think you beat. I'm not sure whether Iceman was advising this play for any overpair though. He suggested this to me when my holding was K-K and there are a lot fewer cards I don't like to see hit the board than the number of cards that can scare off J-J.

Good points. I should clarify i raised TO $5 preflop, i.e. called 1 and raised 4 for a total of $5. On the flop I often bet about 3/4 of the pot because a) it offers poor odds to most chasers and b) I like to do that with AK to avoid giving up a full pot bet on a missed flop, so doing so with overpairs helps disguise my AK drive bluffs. I am not entirely sure why I bet more here, I guess I was VERY hopeful he'd fold lol!

Monk
xxxxx

I do think there is a lot of logic to betting a little less on the flop and turn. The only way you're getting away from this hand with any stack is giving enough wiggle room so if he raises the turn you feel you can safely fold knowing you are beat. World class lay down?

Personally I think your lack of read means you're kissing a stack good bye no matter what. I mean assuming you bet less up to the turn and he still raises you to a level you are all-in or pot commited, are you really going to fold? Since its Empire where all kinds of poker related madness lurk I think you are playing to the death.

Rich

I lose my stack here on Party. The call is scary..but you're stack isn't big enough to do anything about it. You can't check cuz it's likely he's drawing. Too many calling station and maniacs on Party to slow down here. On other sites like Stars and Prima, my advice might be different.

Ive noticed that Im more inclined to bet full pot with TT or JJ when I raised preflop and was lucky enough to hit all undercards, than I would be with AA in that same situation.

I have to fight the urge to play JJ very differently than I would AA or KK there. Jacks are always tough to play.

I actually had a very similar hand to this last week. I limped with QQ, a guy raised with what turned out to be JJ. Flop was rags. I check/called. Then he bet the turn and I check raised all in which he called. So I would have to say I like the way the opponent played the hand. I wouldnt play it that way every time though. QQ-TT I play very situational.