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Good thinking versus good playing

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Good thinking versus good playing

Postby k3nt » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:50 am

OK, so I played this one just fine. And I won a good pot with it (considering the stakes). But I am very, very unhappy with the way I was thinking all through the hand.

$.01/$.02 NL at UB. ($2 buy-in) Dealt AK on the button.

Preflop. Two limpers, a raise (all-in by a very short stack) to 9c. I call. One of the limpers re-raises to 17c. I call again. Everybody else is folded by now. I have about $4.50 left, he has about $4.25. Pot is about 50c (=25xBB).

Flop. Axx rainbow. He bets pot. I call.
Turn. K. He overbets the pot. I call again.
River. x. No flush, no paired board. He goes all-in. I call.

He shows QQ for a totally destroyed hand that was bluffing all the way. I giggle a little and take his stack. (The short stack all-in guy had 87s or something stupid.)

OK, a totally unremarkable hand. The guy basically begged me to take his stack. "Here, take it all, I insist!" It was the easiest play ever.

What bothers me about it is how badly I was thinking throughout the hand. I was not putting him on any particular hand, or thinking about what he could have to be betting like that. I just saw my hand getting stronger and stronger, and felt disinclined to fold.

If I were thinking better, I would have thought, on the flop: "I don't believe you have AA, because you were limping preflop." And on the turn: "I certainly don't believe you have KK, because you limped preflop AND you were betting out when there was an A on the flop. Therefore, the only hand I can put you on is trips or a bluff. And if you had trips, I think I can count on you to be betting differently. Your whole play smells like desperation." After the fact, it was easy to look back and see that. But I wasn't thinking. And when I'm not thinking, I know already that I'm going to get clobbered long term. It takes real mental energy to play this game well. It's easy to just look at how well my hand is doing and not think about what the other guy could have that beats me.

Anyway, this is not news to anybody. Killer Poker Online says the same thing, and much better. When you're not in the best place mentally, you shouldn't be playing. I got lucky last night, and the fact that I won rather than losing does not indicate that I'm playing better.
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Postby acesover » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:09 pm

Yes, it's important to always be thinking about the hand being played, but in this situation I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. It seems you were just following your instincts here, sensing you were ahead all along and letting this player bet into you for an easy win. In what is probably an easier than usual hand, I think it's natural to just go on auto-pilot sometimes.
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Postby Felonius_Monk » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:45 pm

Yeah, on those tables that's an easy call every time, all the way. Those tables can be a killing ground and anytime you find a hand you really have to back it with your stack. If I was playing there I wouldn't think twice about playing AK for my stack, there's plenty enough players who'll bet and raise any two. Keep thinking about the game but don't beat yourself up for moving chips in on TPTK on tables where it'll make you a ton of money.

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Postby briachek » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:32 pm

you said that he couldn't have AA because he was limping preflop but then he reraised your raise. This is often a sign of a strong hand like AA or KK trying to trap someone preflop. Don't be too quick to put someone off a hand.
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Postby Mad Genius » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:11 pm

As others pointed out, at those stakes the right move will almost always be obvious. When you are playing aggressive, tricky good players at higher stakes, though, reading skills and being able to put people on hands will become so unbelivably important. I still make the mistake of making too rash decisions, which can often lead to calling bets where I have a VERY good hand but where I'm clearly beaten. For example, this hand recently came up in a live 1/2NL game:

I have [Ks][9s] on the button in a 6-handed game. Folded to me, and I raise to $8. I've been playing tight and my raises are getting too much respect, so I'm trying to loosen up. BB calls. He is somewhat loose but not a bad player.

(Pot: $17) Flop: [Kd][7s][5s]

Good flop for me. He checks. I bet $8. He checkraises to $20. I call.

(Pot: $57) Turn: [2h]

He bets $15. Odd bet. I call.

(Pot: $87) River: [Kc]

He bets $30. I know I'm beat. He checkraised a fairly uncoordinated flop and then bet all the way through. Clearly he has either trip Ks with a better kicker or a full boat if he hit a set on the flop. So what do I do? I call within 5 seconds. He shows KQ and takes it down.

So again, trying to consciously put people on hands and deciding whether you are beat or not is a very important concept in Hold'em. Over the long run it will save a lot of money if you get out earlier when you think you are beat. And if you think you are winning, raising should almost always be the right move. In my case my calls on the flop and turn were okay since I was drawing but the river call was just horrible.
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Postby k3nt » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:00 am

Thanks much for all the replies!

In response to briachek: I have read about people limp-reraising with AA, but I haven't yet seen it down at the micro levels. For one thing, there's just way too many passive players limping in at this level to count on getting a chance to reraise. If you limp with AA you're likely to find yourself in an unraised pot with 6-8 other people! The easy way to win with AA at this level is to go all-in preflop: you'll get called by 1-3 other people, and many of them will hold AK through Ax and be beaten almost no matter what cards come.

In response to Mad Genius: this is one of the only things I am good at thinking about! If I'm playing any two cards lacking an A and I hit my top card for a pair or even my top trips, I'm looking around to see who also hit that card but has a better kicker than I do. I think I learned this quickly because in the loose games I play, with so many people seeing most flops, there is likely to be a hand out there beating you even when you hit pretty strong. So playing AJ, I am way happier when I see a jack-high flop than when I hit my ace. In the face of any strong betting, I may throw AJ away hitting the A (although some people at this level are dumb enough to play their A8 like it was AK -- and I"ll make a note if I see a guy doing it and call the moron next time).

Anyway, thanks again for all the responses. Since I didn't even ask any questions, it's way better than I deserved. :)
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