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The "using weak leads to feign weakness" experimen

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The "using weak leads to feign weakness" experimen

Postby Jux » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:54 am

After reading about weak leads on this board, I decided I wanted to try using them to feign weakness to see if they'd make more money for me.

Villain is a solid TA (5/16), perfect for what I'm about to try

Poker Trackers a bit screwy, so I'm typing this from memory.
I have about $150, Villain has around $120~

In the BB, I get [9s][9c], MP1 calls, Villain on the button makes it 5 to go. I call and so does MP1.

Pot 15.50 Flop [Ah] [9d] [5s]
I weak lead for $5, hoping MP1 will call and Villain will make a big raise. MP1 actually folds, but Villain does make that raise I was hoping for. Villain raises to 20. At this point I put him on AK, but since he's a pretty decent player from what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same with KK/QQ.
I just call here, because any rereaise would probably scare away anything except AA.

Pot 55.50 Turn [Td]
Thought about going for the check-raise, but decided to weak lead again to try and represent a weak ace. I bet $5 again, villain raises again to $40. I just call again (I'd normally probably check-raise, but this was an experiment so I wanted to try something different)

Pot 135.50 River [4s]
I wait about 3 seconds and push all-in. Villain thinks a while and calls with AK. Woo! experiment successful!

Now that I think about it though, this type of play would probably work only once before players start wising up, though it could be a handy way see a cheap river with draws.
Even though it was sucessful this time, I don't see myself using this strat unless I come across a TA I've never seen before.
What do you guys think about my play and the overall idea of weak leading?
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Postby Jux » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:03 am

One question before I sleep to maybe spark up discussion:

If you're villain and and my stats are TA 5/18 (PT actually has me pegged as ultra-aggressor, but whatever) do I have your stack?
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Postby Zmej » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:45 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby kennyg » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:53 am

the problem with this expermental hand is that he had a powerful hand.. if you had check raised him on the flop... or lead out pot... u'd probably get his stack anyway.

here's a better example of weak lead working on me:

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
5 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $929.50
CO: $1052.50
HERO: $1065.50
SB: $418.50
BB: $3812.20

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is Button with [Kc] [Qs]
UTG calls, CO folds, HERO raises to $40, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: [2c] [5h] [4h] ($125, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $10, HERO raises to $90, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: [Jh] ($305, 2 players)
UTG bets $10, HERO raises to $200, UTG calls.

River: [7s] ($705, 2 players)
UTG checks, HERO bets $300, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: $1305
HERO shows KC QS
UTG shows 2S 4S
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Postby adiuvat » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:01 am

The weak lead is a tool you use for a specific type of player: the one who senses weakness and attacks. It looks to me like you used it very well against this opponent.

Now, how do you proceed against a more aggressive, loose opponent? You STRONG lead with strength.. every time. Sooner or later the bassid is gonna make a move on you :] Then move to the weak lead, or check raising, or whatever.. but not until you stack him. Whether you keep on exploiting the LA's tendency would depend on your evaluation of his observation skills.
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Postby The Golden 1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:49 pm

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Postby iceman5 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:25 pm

iceman5 [As]
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Postby k3nt » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:29 pm

Everybody says you're getting his stack every time. But what if he's decent? Remember, Jux is out of position. Put yourself in the position of the AK guy, with a read that Jux is a solid player who makes money. Full ring game. Same board as before.

Jux leads the flop, you raise strong, and Jux reraises. You can fold, right? I mean, what could Jux have other than a set? There's no draws he could semibluff like this.

Jux leads the flop, you raise, Jux flat calls. You check behind on the turn and keep the pot small, right? Jux doesn't get your stack.

Jux check-raises the flop. You can get away from TPTK on this board, right?

Jux check-calls the flop. There's no draw, it's safe to check behind on the turn. Again Jux doesn't stack you.

In general, if I raise 5x with AK and catch TPTK I'm not willing to stack off every time I catch an A or a K. Are you? Especially for more than a full stack, when you're in position.

I like Jux's line as a change of pace. Thanks for the post.
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Postby The Golden 1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:20 pm

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Postby k3nt » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:57 pm

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Postby Rhound50 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:52 pm

Weak leads are a tool in a poker players arsenal. This is one case where this worked well. I do think there is a chance that this guy gets away from TPTK if Jux pushs all in on the flop, though that is much less likely in 6max, from what I've seen.

As was stated before this is a play that can only be used against a player once. I have notes on a lot of players that like to do this and once I've seen it I'm not raising into any other their weak bets. This play also must be used against the right players, to mant players will just call down your beat bet on the turn and not allow you to build a big enough pot to push all in on the river. This play is very similar to leading into a raisor that it needs to be made against the type of player that is going to be agressive enough to raise, against a calling station type player a check raise is obviously a better play than a weak lead.
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