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Giving bad pot odds to opponents

Postby Mr Rossi » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:02 am

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Postby Molina » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:25 am

I think that by overbetting you're getting KJ, QJ to fold more often than you actually want (you obviously want them in all day long). Betting pot is fine when HU as it's unlikely your opponent hit also. Betting pot is big enough to make playing draws incorrect, though it you know your opponent will pay to much to try and hit then go for it.

Also, by overbetting the flop with TPTK you're inflating the pot for the turn, a reasonable bet on the turn will make draws fold and sets check raise (as most donks dream about the C/C flop, CR turn).

I usually reserve over betting for complete idiots who're just giving money away and multiway raised pots when I flop a set with a draw out.

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Postby Yenool » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:55 am

Was this poker night live you are talking about?

I think the point he was getting at is that in a cash game you are the poker bookie and that if you can put your opponent on a hand (say a flush draw), you can charge JUST the wrong price, giving them bad odds but still making it tempting for them to call, and because you have unlimited re-loads you can keep doing this forever, exploiting a small edge / weakness in their game.

However, in a tournament you only have 1 tournament life and sometimes you have to overbet a pot to kill a hand dead on the flop, because although your opponent might be making a bad call by calling a 3/4 pot bet and out-drawing you, that doesn't help you keep your chip stack and tournament life healthy.

I think generally in a tournament you play hands a lot faster / aggressively than in a cash game.
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Postby Mr Rossi » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am

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Postby platypus » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:47 am

So here's the deal with giving your opponent bad odds in a cash game:

Assuming your opponent has a flush draw he's 4.2 to 1 against for getting his card on the turn. If the pot has about 5 bucks in it, and you bet say... 1 dollar, he's getting great odds to call. 1 dollar into 6 gives him effective odds for the call. By betting 2.5 dollars instead, he has to call 2.5 into 7.5, giving him 3 to 1 odds for a call, less than chances for his flush. Of course, there's implied odds to worry about too, which gives value to him calling based on the idea he'll make money from you later in the hand. Otherwise there would be no incentive to call with poor odds.

In a cash game you can bet in a way to give your opponent closer to correct odds to entice calls. Since hopefuly your playing with a large bankroll, this gives a good player higher variance, but a more efficient win-rate since they will be drawing to hands more often incorrectly. However, if you're in a tournament, do you really want to be doing this? In the same situation against a flush draw you're more likely to want to drive your opponent out of the hand, rather than let the odds take over. Getting into lucky draw situations favors the skill less, as they are at a disadvantage in every hand they play. The skillfull player would likely prefer to throw away a marginal hand that could take him completely out of the tournament. This assumes he could make more money later on.

I hope this is coherent, correct, or helpful.
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Postby Stelvask » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:48 am

In a cash game, overbetting the pot is really only useful in three situations:

1: You have a powerhouse hand, and have a good reason to believe that your opponent will call an all in, thinking it either looks like a bluff, or thinking they have the best hand

2: You are against an good opponent who has seen you overbet pots with the nuts (or near to them), and you have a strong reason to believe that your opponent will fold a strong hand in this case. This however, is the least useful - i have used this play maybe 3 times all year, and i am always hesitant to use it. I firmly believe that it's completely useless below 2/4nl, and even then it takes a lot of time to set up. It's an awful play at .25/.50nl.

ex 1: I hold 44. the final board is TT442. given the action that's taken place on the hand, i have a reason to believe my opponent holds a T. I push here (as i would often do with Tx), because it's almost impossible to fold the T.

ex 2: I hold 88. the final board is 78A22. Lets say there was a flush draw on the flop that never showed up. I hold the nuts.There has also been some decent betting going on, and i believe my opponent is holding an ace. In some cases against opponents who i know like to try to pick off bluffs, i will overbet the pot here in some cases to represent a missed flush draw, in the hopes that he'll once again try to pick off a bluff and be suprised to find his mistake.
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Postby shamdonk » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:50 am

Be glad your opponents refuse to fold; if they didn't, you just might go broke.


(9:00:09 PM) GodlikeRoy: i think you could prolly post total shit for the next 2 years aaaaand like 192 days and you'll still be considered 'posting good' cause of your threads that'll never be seen thread
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Postby Stoneburg » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:06 am

Obviously the bet size depends on a lot of things. With AJ on a flop of J83 rainbow it's enough to bet half pot because no hand will have anywhere near odds to draw and you want to get money from worse hands and not bloat the pot to a size where you'll only get called when you're beaten.

With JT6 and two of a suit you need to bet bigger because all kinds of draws are out. With JJA you once again can make the bet smaller because most likely your opponent is drawing dead. With more opponents you need to bet bigger, with fewer you can bet smaller.

My "standard" bet is usually 80-100% of the pot on the flop, and slightly smaller on the turn. But these are usually when the pot is raised. If the pot is unraised with a lot of players and I have a big hand, like 66 on a board of A65 and there is a flush draw, I will usually overbet the pot substantially because although the bet is improportional to the pot, it won't have to be huge.

NL $50
6 people limp into the pot, flop comes [As] [5s] [6c] and I hold 66. There is $3 in the pot, but I might very well bet $4 or $5 because that's not a very large bet to people, if I had raised 4xBB and gotten 2 callers the pot would have been $6 and I would have bet $5 most of the time, so people will have seen me bet that amount before and think it is just a normal bet, not realising they are getting awful odds to draw or call with their Ace. Also, if someone has a decent Ace or two-pair and decide to raise, the big size of my bet will allow me to get my stack in by the river.
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