It seems that every time I bet out with TPTK or an overpair on the flop (in a raised pot and I did the preflop raising):

* if I get callers I am behind to two pair or a set , or ahead of a determined flush chaser
* if I get no callers I had them beat but win a pittance

If I am called, the following situation tends to arise on the turn (if I don't improve).

If I'm in position:

* if I'm checked to, I'll probably bet the pot (I dare not give a free card)
* if I'm bet into by substantially less than the pot, I'll probably raise (I want to find out where I am for sure) so that the total bet is at least pot-sized
* if someone bets the pot at me, I'll min raise (should I raise more?)

If I'm not in position

* I'll bet the pot (I don't want to give a free card). If I'm raised I give up. If I get called I'm now quite sure my opponent is ahead or is one of these people who'll pay any amount of money because they 'feel' their flush draw is going to complete (which happens with distressing frequency)

I think the basic problem is that I find it tricky when people just call call call. I can't tell whether they're trapping me, drawing on me with implied odds, genuinely playing badly or what. So I tend to bet the pot or raise a lot to try to find out where I am. And I keep getting called with better hands who do not play back at me.

But I can't stop betting, because then I'll be giving free cards!

I need some help in figuring my way past this, as TPTK and overpairs are killing me right now after the flop. They either win a negligible amount or lose a king's ransom.

Well this is obviously situation dependent. In general, having position is obviously a huge deal in a raised pot. When your opponent check-calls the flop, he will almost always check to you on the turn. So your turn decision is often the most critical one in the hand. Let's say you are holding a pair of Queens on a board of 3-5-9-J with two spades out. I think it's always a good idea to throw out about a 2/3rd pot-sized bet here and hope you don't get raised. A checkraise on the turn almost always means that your opponent is holding a monster, as they have been waiting for you to build the pot and then pop you. Clearly if you are checkraised it's time to let it go and you won't lose a king's ransom. If he calls and checks to you again on the river, you can take a free showdown with a showdown-worthy hand.

You are probably put to a tougher decision if your opponent fires out on the turn. At this point, it's important for you to narrow down your opponent's range of hands. A lot of times this bet will signify a made draw. However, if the turn brings no card that completes a straight/flush draw, then you can usually assume that your opponent didn't improve the turn. It's tough for you to raise here with a single pair in a lot of cases, so I'd fold a good percentage of the time. If the bet is weak and it looks like he is just trying to slow me down to see a cheap card, I will fire out a bigger raise right back in hopes of taking it down.

Either way, I think an important thing to consider is that you always want to avoid getting pot-committed. If you raise 4xBB preflop, bet pot on the flop, and bet 2/3rd pot on the turn, and you still lose the pot you'd be losing about 30xBB there. Don't put any more money into the pot unless you are willing to play for your entire stack.

Oh and one other thing. I hate minraising if I'm bet at. If your opponent bets pot at you on the turn, you should usually be looking to fold, or if you think you got him beat, you must raise more.

That adds up, thanks. I know it's all situation specific, but I like talking in general

When you say 'fold, or ... you must raise more' are you effectively saying 'fold or go all-in' in the case of a 100bb buy-in sized stack, e.g. at PokerStars?

I reasoned this out, so correct me if I'm wrong.

If you have a 100bb buyin stack to start with, the margin you have in between min-raising a pot-sizer on the turn and going all-in is only 30bb (if pot sized bets have been made all the way, with just one opponent). With the pot being 24bbs at the turn, I guess you're actually already pot committed by min-raising, as a call on their behalf will push the pot to 120bb (5 x 24bb), which means you have only 30bb left, which is 25% of a pot-sized bet at the river.

Aside: What is the hard-and-fast definitiion of 'pot committed' anyways?

So is it best to either fold or go all-in on the turn, adding to the pressure on them in case their hand IS better than yours (but not the nuts), possibly making them fold the winner?

On the river I can't imagine folding for 1/4 of the pot on the river if I've put in 70% of my stack (unless very very clearly beaten), so maybe the all-in is the best move?

I hope this makes some sense...

For the sake of my sanity I'm going to use real numbers. Playing in a $100max NL on a site with a 100BB structure, you raise and make it $4 to go preflop with a full stack. You get 2 callers and the pot is $12 on the flop. I've been experimenting betting out for $6-$9 here depending on the texture of the flop due to some advice from Iceman, but if you bet the pot, $12, and get 1 caller the pot is now $36 going into 4th street. 2/3 of $36 is a $24 bet. I like to bet 3/4 of the pot on the turn after getting called the flop, but if you do the math you have commited the same money to the pot either way you play it. So $24+$12+4 = $40 invested in this pot. If your opponent raises and you want to show down, yes you will have to go all in. Before your $24 turn bet you only have $16 invested in the pot though, so you certainly don't want to go do anything crazy like going all in after your opponent checks because chaces are you will only be called when beaten due to you severely overbetting the pot.

Lets look at min raising. Your opponent leads into your for $12 on the flop. Making it $36 to go is a much stronger play than just min raising by making it $24 to go, and you've again invested $40 (or 40%) of your stack in the pot. If your opponent comes over the top of this you should certainly fold. When your raise is called your opponent acts before you on the turn (he lead into you, remember?) so you'll be able to make a decision as to whether you want to check behind him and call any modest bet on the river or push all in (which is your only option due to the size of the pot ($84 by my gorilla math) at this point).

I'm responding to the original post here, not the later conversation.

The original post seems to be saying two contradictory things.

First, you say that you don't know if you are ahead or behind in these situations.

Second, you say that you can't just check because you don't want to give a free card.

But it's possible that you are behind, not ahead. If you genuinely have no idea if you're ahead or not, then it's worth taking the possibility seriously that you are behind. And if you are behind, then you're not giving the free card, you are getting the free card. Maybe your third Q hits on the river and the guy who was slowplaying his set of 7s or his two pair gets busted.

If you really have no idea where you are at on the turn, why not just check? See the river as cheaply as possible, and try to see what your opponent was playing with. Find out if he's the type to slowplay a set/two pair or whether he was drawing all the way along, and make a note for next time you face him.

Also, I have found (in my minimal experience) that if you ALWAYS follow a preflop raise & flop bet with a turn bet, even online (even at micro limits!) people notice and will checkraise you when they have the goods. In other words, if you have no idea what these guys are playing with, but they DO know what to expect from you, you're in trouble.

Just a suggestion, FWIW.

[ in response to Bob ]

I think I see what you mean.

In a nutshell: Raising to 3x the pot on the flop and re-evaluating on the turn if called works out costing the same as betting or calling a pot-sizer on the flop and betting two thirds of the pot on the turn, the former move being the 'stronger' one.

But either of these approaches go back to this: You're either winning $12 (against one opponent who folds to the big raise) or have spent $28 to find out you're probably beat, which is the horrible situation I'm trying to get away from.

So I think I'm leaning towards your/ice's suggestiion of betting around 2/3 the pot on the flop.

This underbetting of the pot in may get semi-strong hands to reveal themselves (if they think you are trying to draw cheaply and the board is co-ordinated) and will also cause a lot of opponents with drawing hands to make mathematical mistakes (as far as pot odds go, anyway).

It also keeps the pot smaller, which can't be a bad thing on one pair..

This is definitely looking like the way forward..

Am I thinking along the right lines?

[ in response to k3nt ]

I do genuinely find it difficult with TPTK or an overpair to absolutely know whether I am ahead or not if the opponent is just calling pot sized bets.

I find perpetual callers very frustrating in terms of yielding information - is it just me?

I agree that I must take into consideration the possibility that I am behind. But since I am unsure of where I am, I must also take into consideration the possibility that I am ahead, and I don't want to give that lead up if I have it by giving a free card! Urk!

The suggestion of trying to reach a cheap showdown after the flop action sounds good.

On the issue of pot committed-ness, I don't think there is a specific rule which states that you are or are not. You just have to go by what odds you are getting to call a certain bet, and whether you think it's a +EV play in the long run. I typically don't like to commit more than, say, 30% of my stack into a pot before the river unless I am willing to put it all in. My philosophy is that you should only be looking to play big pots with your monsters and if you don't have one then keep the pot as small as possible. Pot control is important in that sometimes you can give a free card but thus keep the pot small so that when your opponent hits you can still fold and have only lost a little bit. The idea of pushing TPTK too hard on the flop and turn can backfire because usually you will be more likely to call a river bet when your opponent makes his draw since you have already put in so much money.