I only raise from EP due to boredom or "this hand looks good enough to not be -EV from EP for a few bucks more so I'll put a bit more in to make it look like I'm a bit loose from any position" reasons. I'm not sure if either is valid, to be honest.

I just can't see a reason to raise in EP in PLO, or if you play a highly aggressive game (which can be a big winner).... But given your "solid" game (i.e. you play much like the most boring PLO fart around, me) raising in EP has limited value for you, I'd imagine. When I DO do it, it's usually stuff like 3457, or some random 2 pair I don't mind paying a bit more for, or AAds.... Something that I think has some value due to either being strong in a multi-way pot or having good "wow" factor in a showdown if anyone's watching.

Good post Aisthesis...you guys are always making me think deeper about my game.

In low limit, either I am a crap magnet, or its just the nature of the game, but it seems like EP raising attracts callers rather than thinning the field.

I have been sucessful with your strategy but don't know if I was doing +EV stuff or getting on the good side of variance.

This game is just too flop dependent for too much fancy stuff. I am seeing a vast difference in my bottom line relative to the ability of my competition in PLO versus Limit HE. The patient position players seem to do best in LowLimit PLO.

Just my thoughts, and thanks again for your post and Monk's reply. Thought provoking!!

JJ

Overheard at a bus stop on the Vegas strip...."I like keno best. The odds are so bad you don't gotta worry about 'em rigging the game."

I disagree to some extent.

First, I don't think you can really say that if your post-flop play is great, you can play/raise anything. For example, if you only intend to bet a 13-outer or better, top 2 with some draw, or top/middle set, then only certain hands are likely to be of any real value.

Second, I do think the situation envisioned by Tom does occur (the live game I've been playing is actually pretty close). I think an EP raise actually may get more callers there, with almost any 4 hoping to spike 2 pair against AA. But if that's the case, and they're expecting AA from you, then you need to be raising as many strong wraps as possible--but not AA.

Third, I think there are various moves (this is where I think Rolf is extremely interesting) that you can make PF to isolate certain players on whom you have reads or to get quite a bit in as favorite with dead money along the lines of Rolf's short-stack strategy.

Fourth, a purely mathematical aspect: If you have exactly the same number of callers on just some profitable hand in the given situation, then a raise multiplies the profit-rate of that hand by whatever the raising quantity is, and that can make a big difference. But on also has to bear in mind the re-raise possibility--ok, so QQ may be profitable, but is it profitable HU against a re-raiser even if you do have position? Possibly in some situations, but certainly not always.

It just seems to me that there's a lot of continuity between PF and postflop aspects. Ok, you can raise Q832ds in LP if you want, but it's only going to be profitable if you can get by with quite a few bluffs. It's going to be extremely rare for that hand to make the nuts by the river in any case.

I dunno. I guess we just disagree about the importance of PF decisions. I still think there are lots of unexplored ways of increasing one's profit-rates through better PF plays, and I definitely intend to continue to explore those.

Just ran some quick numbers in my current DB (50k hands or so) for the first 3 seats after the blinds on full ring tables because this thread got me curious. This is what I found:

Filtered for typical (for me) EP starting hands (basically AAxx, KK/QQxx, wraps, gap wraps and A-suited wraps, double small pairs etc.)

I found this using the "pre-flop raise" filter in PT

No raise: 1276 times for a (0.25) bb/hand loss
Any raise ( Raise/reraise/limp-reraise): 686 times for a 0.95 bb/hand profit.

Total: 1962 hands, 0,17 bb / hand.

So, I conclude, based on this smallish sample, that given my style and my typicall opponents, raising from EP is profitable. (If i didn't mess something up in PT )

Very interesting. The biggest problem I have really is with the pairs. If you raise AA, I feel like you tip your hand too much. If you raise JJ-KK without extremely good side cards, then you risk getting re-raised off your hand. Moreover, if you're looking mainly to set, then you want the best pot odds possible.

With good wrap-type hands, I have no fundamental problem with the raise. But my concern on that is limiting the field in a situation where you'd like lots of callers--ideally a bunch of limpers, then a max raise from LP that's going to be bigger anyway than what you can raise in EP.

Hmmm that's pretty persuasive, yes. I actually DO raise sometimes in EP but it's rarely with AA or big pairs (sometimes with a double pair like KKQQ I will, if I doubt anyone behind me will raise). Given that the best situation to be in (in general) in EP is holding a set and looking to CR, rather than holding a drawing hand that'll perhaps be harder to extract full value from OOP, perhaps I am rather passive with pair-orientated hands (i.e. I would'nt raise something lik QQT9 in EP generally) and a touch aggressive with stuff that's usually looking to hit draws.

Anyways, interesting stuff.

I'd be very interested to hear if Anders could possibly come up with an explanation of the difference in win-rates.

In my view, the better your reads, the more you can raise from whatever position--although LP potentially gives you more of a read.

Anyhow, I have about 22% of starting hands that as hands seem to be profitable over about 40k hands--and that includes the time where I'd have to classify myself as beginner, hence I no doubt wasn't playing some of these at all well at first.

In principle, if all of those are profitable, if exactly the same players would call for 3 times the money or more, then I would have made 3 times as much with a raise. But there's still the thinning the field issue.

Anyhow, without some sort of particular read on the table, I can only come up with maybe 7% or so of hands that are pretty clearly worth raising in LP--where the earlier position players have already committed some chips which are at minimum dead money or may also lead them to call with a dubious hand.

Other than that, I almost think that any raise can be justified only on the basis of some sort of read on the various players at the table.