The first hand I posted resulted in some good discussions, so I thought I would post another big hand that I played. I was probably involved in 4-5 big hands but this one is particularly interesting due to the fact that it was the biggest pot of the night for me and it was against the same good LAG player as the KJ hand. This hand occured about an hour after the other one did - I hadn't really been involved in much inbetween and had about a 1700 stack (it was at about 1600 after I won the big hand). My opponent meanwhile went on a huge rush after losing the pot to me and seemed to be near 2k. He easily had everyone else covered. One other thing of note - I was seated to the right of him but when a spot opened up I moved two seats to the left of him. This way I figured I would have position on him. On to the hand.

I am UTG with [8s]. I've raised twice UTG all day, and both times I had shown KK and AA. I decide to throw a curveball and raise to 30. This was a fairly strong opening but the table had loosened up a bit so bigger preflop raises were being respected less. Villian is in SB and calls. We're headsup.

FLOP: [8d][Qs] (Pot: $65)

I bet out $60. Villian calls instantly.

TURN: (Pot: $185)

I bet $150. Villian hesitates for a couple of seconds and then raises to $400.

I'd like some input on what my best move is here.

a) Call
b) Raise $300-500
c) Move all-in

For information, the pot is $735 right now. If I decide to raise, I'll have about $1200 left.

I'll have results on how I played the turn in a bit and then describe the river action. So far, what do you put villian on? What do you think he puts me on?

If he has QQ youre dead meat of course, but you have to remember that hes playing the hand with the notion that you have AA or KK. Hes not going to play a monster pot with you if he has KK because he would be afraid you have AA or QQ. Therefore I put him on AA or QQ.

Against any other player I would be all in here (if the opponent wasnt all in already with his turn raise), but because you both have monster stacks I think I would just call his raise and see what he does at the river.

I think its 50/50 whether he has AA or QQ but I would be leaning towards QQ and be pretty worried.

How the hell do you get in 2 HUGE hands against this guy in the same night when you both have monsters?

I think your opponent might be testing you with this raise. You bet $150, a min raise makes it $300 to go, and he made it $400 to go. That isn't even 3x your bet! Was it standard to check raise for this small amount? I don't think A-Q is a possibility because he would be calling an UTG raise out of position with it, and then check-called the flop. Perhaps he has Q-Q and wants you to see his check raise as weak so you'll either call and face a large river bet or come over the top of him so he can bust you. I don't know why, but I get the feeling that he might have an overpair--K-K or A-A. So I guess I put him on Q-Q, K-K, or A-A here. He has to put you on some kind of hand though after you raised it 6x the BB on the flop, and then bet almost the full pot on the flop and turn. He is check raising you anyways despite all the strength, which is certainly dangerous, but it isn't a strong one. I think he is trying to find out where he is at and will likely fold if you come over the top of him.

I put him on AQ or A7. pocket 88 or QQ would suck. I personally either call this raise or move-all..no inbetween.After some thought, I would call because you have position. TJ Cloutier may slow down on this river here...but this guy is most likely going to lead out. The only scare really is an ace on the river..so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

After his bet on the river... I would gauge the size of the bet, and try to muster all my poker reading instincts to make sure I wasn't beat by QQ or 88 and then move all-in.

The other big hand, I was fairly sure the other guy had JJ and was willing to risk my stack on it by going all in at the river.

This time , Im WAY too worried he has QQ and Id rather risk a much smaller win than take the chance of busting with a monster stack that took me all night to build.

Im not going all in on this hand no matter how good a read I think I get at the river. There arent enough poker instincts in my little pea brain to give me the courage to raise him all in at the river.

Like I said, it changes thing a bit that you have 87 when he thinks you have a high pair, so I doubt he has KK. I say its AA or QQ.

Dont get me wrong, Im not folding unless he goes all in at the river. If he does, hes going to have to call a clock on me before I fold.

Thanks for the replies so far guys. I did what kenny and iceman said and just called. Initially I was happy that he raised me - after all, I was representing a high pair but in reality had a boat. But this made me think, if he's got AA beat, he's probably got 78 beat too. Noway is he playing a 7 here, unless he has suddenly gone crazy. When he called my preflop raise, I was pretty sure that he had some sort of pocket pair. He's folding AQ out of position against a monster stack. AK is trash here so I ruled that out. Out of all the pocket pairs I'm only losing to 2. 88 is less likely given that I hold an 8 (at least statistically) but I was obviously afraid of QQ. AA was possible but I thought it was unlikely based on the fact that he smooth-called me, although I was pretty sure he was capable of this. KK also seemed possible. Now the real interesting part comes on the river. After a brick falls, he immediately announces that he's allin. So...do you make the call here? He just overbet the 1k pot. It's roughly 1200 to call.

And iceman, I don't know how the hell I got tangled up with this guy TWICE. Like I said early on I tried my best to stay out of his way, but he played a lot of pots and with my UTG raise I wasn't really expecting a call from him since he was out of position against me. I would have been more than happy to play this hand against a normal stack (~500) but against this guy it was pretty tough to play.

I thought about this hand all the way home from work. He has to be just as afraid of QQ as you do. If he doesnt have it, then I dont see any way he would risk his stack with the very real possibily that YOU have it.

I would make a VERY tough laydown, knowing full well you might be folding the best hand. I just dont like it. Smells too fishy. Im not playing this big a hand against the monster stack of the table givien the way the action played out. I can sleep knowing I may have folded the best hand here. QQ just looks to possible to me.

I'd fold because I don't have the bankroll to call that kind of bet

Seriously though, this guy must have some balls. I was not expecting an all-in here. But then that begs the question...would he go all-in with QQ? He cannot put you on a 7. Even if he thinks you have AA, a value bet would be much more legit from him. UNLESS, he's pulling a "kennyg" and moving all-in trying to look weak. He sounds like he is capable of doing that.

Frankly, this hand is above my limits and I am at a loss of what to do. I would be curious as to what someone like danny negruea or grant pittman would tell you to do here. I still think you're ahead...but I don't have the money or the balls to make this call.

Could you get any read from him at all??? In live poker I can make a lot of tough calls and laydowns based on good reads.

kennyg

I of course tried to get a read on him. I started yapping on and on to get any sort of reaction out of him. He just did his best to pretend like he didn't know I was there. Usually my opponents will give something away if I start pressuring them but this guy wasn't giving anything away.

As far as my thought process goes once he went allin, I narrowed his range of hands down to 2 - QQ or KK. Here was my logic. If he had KK, his play through the turn makes sense. He calls me on the flop with an overpair and then puts in an information raise to see if I have a good hand. When I just call him he senses weakness and moves in for his remaining stack. If he puts me on AA (which was a very good possibility based on the way the hand played out) his allin is a great bluff with KK. Why? Because I can't possibly call off 1200 with AA there.

However, if he had KK then he would have to be afraid that I could have QQ, and even though I didn't re-raise with it on the turn as I would be expected to with QQ, I could have been slowplaying them a bit. QQ on the turn is prettty safe from outdraws after all.

Both explanations made a lot of sense to me, which is why I had such a tough time deciding what to do. I would love to hear other opinions on the hand.

Mad Genius,

You said he was UTG so he had to be checking to you up till the turn where he check raised you..correct?

If in fact that is correct, and barring any other info - all I have to go on is the fact that this person is a LAG (I'm assuming a 'loose aggressive player'), he won't give up anything when you talk to him during the hand and he called your flop bet instantly. That said, I call without hesitation and only call so that he will bet into me on the river because I don't believe I'm going to get paid off if I raise him here and I believe that you have way the best hand right now. Basically, I'm just calling to induce a bluff on the river. I didn't read the last hand you posted so maybe there is more information out there about him that I could gain from reading that but I'm prepared to lose my whole stack on this one with the information I have.

TheUnknownPlayer


I think you misread it. I was UTG. He was SB. He did in fact check to me on the flop and then checkraise the turn. I have seen him checkraise both with the nuts and with absolutely nothing, so the checkraise itself doesn't give anything away about his hand in my opinion.

Mad Genius,

Right, I just got up from taking a half hour nap and saw what I wrote - I meant that *you* were under the gun - yup...ok I read it right.

Ok, I just read further and see that he went all-in on the river... great! I'm in like Flynn.

You know, I was going to wait and hear the rest of the story before giving my analysis but what the heck...

You said, "...if he's got AA beat, he's probably got 78 beat too." I agree, but your statement implies that you think he has AA beat - I don't agree. If he put's you on AA - then he's got to bet if he wants to win this pot.

You also said, "Noway is he playing a 7 here, unless he has suddenly gone crazy." Here I seriously disagree. You have $1700 in front of you pre-flop and you raise $30. If I'm playing against you I'm calling $30 to win $1700 - the implied odds are simply too high to ignore (almost 57:1). One of the advantages of his position (and the reason your pre-flop raise was so brilliant) was that he is almost certainly puttin you on AA or KK). Another reason that I'm coming with a great range of hands is that if I can confidently put you on one of two hands - and you can't put me on any...then the implied odds are that much more attractive. Hands that I'll play against you in his spot which include a seven are: 74s, 74o, 75o, 75s, 76s, 76o, 78s, 78o, 79s, 79o, T7s, T7o, J7s, J7o, A7s and A7o.

"When he called my preflop raise, I was pretty sure that he had some sort of pocket pair." Ok, possible... but I'm playing a much greater range of hands here myself.

"AK is trash here so I ruled that out." You may find it interesting that I would fold this myself. The chances are too great that I'm dominated with too few chances to improve. But if I'm holding a 98s and I hit hard then I'm golden.

"AA was possible but I thought it was unlikely based on the fact that he smooth-called me..." Yep and to a lessor degree it holds true for QQ - although I would have smooth called your pre-flop raise myself with QQ.

Other aspects of the hand which play into my decision to call...
Assuming you normally could get a read off of him when you started talking - people are more likely to remain silent when they are bluffing - although I'm not convinced that would have been the case with this player.

Too, he played it just the way I would have with a T9 or a 65 or any number of hands. When you just called the raise I'm going to start believing that I can make you lay the hand down. Particularly if I put you on AA or KK.

Great analysis TUP. While I do agree with you that he could be playing a wider range of hands, do you really think he would go allin with a hand like 74? If he just had trips I could see him value betting the river much more so than pushing allin. The allin becomes even stranger when you consider the fact that he doesn't have a Q in his hand if he is playing a 7 (in all likelihood), which means he has to fear QQ. To me, the allin on the river felt like he was either trying to push me off my hand because he didn't believe I had QQ based on how I played it, or he had QQ himself and wanted me to think he was bluffing and call down with something like AA or KK.

In the actual hand, I probably thought for about 2 minutes and then flipped my hand over. Of course the entire table starts chattering and oohing and aaahing. I guess nobody would have put me in 78. I think there was even a side bet going on with people betting on who had the better hand. Several times I was about to say "Call" but in the end I just couldn't get myself to call that for 1200. Maybe I WAS playing with scared money. Who knows.

After I mucked villian grinned and flashed a Q to the table and mucked. I was criticized by a terrible player to my left who kept telling me that it was so obvious that villian had AQ and that I was an idiot for folding. Of course he was busted 20 minutes later. After the game villian told me that I made a good laydown. I guess he had QQ.

Mad Genius,

No, I wouldn't go all-in with 74o but I probably would with T9s. 74o has value as it beats both AA and KK much as you said.

I suspect Qx - not QQ - regardless of his claims later. I would have done the same thing - I will always encourage a person by telling them that they did the right thing when they fold incorrectly and tell them they did the wrong thing when they actually do the right thing.

You said that he had to fear that you had QQ - I wouldn't have. If you flopped top set there isn't one person in 100 that'll come out with a bet on the flop and then bet the turn when they fill up with the nut full house. Most everyone is going to check and go for a check raise - that you bet into him twice with the nuts both streets (barring quads) is highly unlikely. Well...I don't know about you personally - but I'm going to assume that against anyone I'm likely to come up against in a $2/$5 game.

I agree that he was trying to push you off your hand because he believed you didn't have QQ which meant - in his mind... you could only have a hand (re: AA or KK) which couldn't call a $1200 bet.

It's a tough spot - no doubt... but I would have called here.