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AK on a monotone flop, 99 on a dry board. 600NL 5max. - Live Poker Forums

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AK on a monotone flop, 99 on a dry board. 600NL 5max.

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AK on a monotone flop, 99 on a dry board. 600NL 5max.

Postby Zmej » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:42 am

May be these are standard, just wanted to check my line.

Hand1.
UTG is marked as a fish. It means that I played with him previously and he did something stupid. Not much of a read as I just sat down. I have a full stack.

Preflop : UTG(800) raises to 12, MP(250) calls, CO(450) raises to 36, I have [As] [Kd] in the SB and call, MP calls, UTG calls.

Flop (148): [Kh] [9h] [5h]
I check, UTG bets 150, folded to me and I call.

Turn (540): [4c]
I bet 400 (AI)?

What do you think about my line?
In the hindsight I thought that 4bet or fold preflop could be better than a call OOP in a multiway pot.

Hand2.
Another table, just a few orbits and no particular reads.
Full stacks/

Preflop: UTG limps, MP raises to 24, I call OTB with [9h] [9c], all others fold.

Flop (60): [2c] [4d] [Jh]
MP checks, I bet 44, MP CR to 120, I 3bet to 280.

I thought that there is some chance that he has something like AK here and tries to get fancy. There is also some chance that I can make him fold QQ, KK here, as the board is very dry and he seemed tight.

Thoughts?

All the input is much appreciated.
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby GodlikeRoy » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:07 am

Hand 1 - Without a read on the CO, I would fold preflop. I think your line is perfect postflop.

Hand 2 - I don't like this much without a good read. Would you 3bet this flop with 44? I think calling his flop raise and raising if he leads the turn is a better way to a) pick off a bluff and b) make him fold an overpair/top pair type hand. Not many people would 3bet this flop with a monster hand and he doesn't yet know you are smart enough to mix up your play, so he will likely put you on air and call with most hands. This is assuming he's a good player. He may even push over the top with AK.

Anyway I would prefer to call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Just a little off topic but going back on what I was saying before about 3betting the flop - there's a concept being thrown around on 2+2 a bit in the past couple of weeks called the Yeti Theorem, which states that a 3bet on a dry board is almost always a bluff. It applies even more if you're the preflop raiser but I think can be applied to other cases too.

Now, because this has become mainstream(ish) knowledge, many players may see your 3bet as air and be more likely to come over the top as a bluff. Depending on the levels the players are thinking on, he also may fold because he knows that you know of the theorem and believes that you want him to think you have air, but in actuality have a big hand. I doubt that he would have that kind of read on you though given you haven't played with him much before.

These types of things occur all the time (another example is overbet shoving the river being the nuts - now a lot of people are doing this as a bluff, and the mind games go on). Keeping an eye out on these sorts of things can help a huge deal in playing against good, thinking opponents who may be reading 2+2 forums.
Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby Zmej » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:23 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby geiststaat » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:13 am

Hand 1: I fold/raise that. Usually I'm gonna muck, but I play FR. Roy or Zmej, can one of you explain the post flop line. I'm trying to figure it out, but can't.

Hand 2: I'm okay with this play every now and again, but I usually don't fire on the flop when the pfr declines to c-bet unless the board is looking particularly dangerous and this board is pretty dry.

On the variation of calling his flop c/r: I think you can raise this turn and have a lot more fold equity from a QQ or AJ than you would have on the flop. If he 3-bets, then clear fold. Raising will make your decision easier, but I'm not sure it's the best play. Hmmm, I don't think he will fire a third shell on the river with any hand that you beat, so can't get any extra by calling. Raising may fold out some hands you beat. So yeah, I say raise.
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Postby ua1176 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:23 am

hand 1: i know conventional wisdom with AK OOP is to push or fold. and frequently i would just fold to a raise + a 3-bet OOP. but if you're gonna play i kind of like a call. the multiway action actually gives you pot odds to go chasing for an A or K flop. and the hand should be pretty easy to play postflop. either you flop TPTK or you don't.

this board is one of the more confusing ones but in general i like your line. sucks when he has the [Ah] but whatever. you also need to give '[Jh][Js] a chance to make a bad call. so shove it in.
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Postby GodlikeRoy » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:36 am

Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby Zmej » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:06 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Zmej » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:15 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Zmej
 
Posts: 2307
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Postby GodlikeRoy » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:23 am

Again it depends on the level of skill your opponent has. If he's a thinking player, he'll see your raise on the turn and think that you know you have zero folding equity and therefore you are never raising with a worse hand than he has, and you probably only ever have sets when you make that raise. You wouldn't do it with a one-pair hand and there are almost no draws out there, so he should fold.

I guess I'm giving too much credit though. You were the one playing the hand so you obviously know best what your folding equity was and whether 3betting this flop was +EV or not. It's very hard to say if it is or not in a vacuum, it's almost completely opponent dependent I think.
Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby Zmej » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:30 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
User avatar
Zmej
 
Posts: 2307
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Location: France. (Russian origin.)


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