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standard, I guess (PLO200)

Postby Aisthesis » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:03 am

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Postby Aisthesis » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:07 am

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Postby pokerzen » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:21 am

Hi Ais ... I think I would play this one differently ...

I'm in the small blind getting dealt JJ99. I don't like putting in a raise simply because I'm first to act when the flop hits.

Since I did raise though, and on the flop I'm being bet at by a tight player who doesn't get out of line, I can assume the play is coming out like this. LP: "Raiser has a high pair or a wrap ... probably aces ... if I call and hit ... maybe I can take his stack."

In this instance I would be putting villain strongly on 2 pair minimum, probably a set, and at least a blocker for the flush draw if not a better one himself. I guess I'm basically saying that post-flop, I'm counting on a hit to make my hand and take down the pot. I'm not entirely sure that even hitting my card will work, as it's possible I could be outdrawn.

I think overall here, I'm probably calling the flop bet (maybe), and then folding. I really don't like this hand in early position, facing action, and relying on a hit (a 15-outer albeit) ... which may or may not take down the hand if it does. I figure I've got 7 clean outs, giving me about a 30% chance for a nut hand. Really, I wanted to set it or forget it on this hand ... rather than face down a relatively weak draw against a made hand and a possibly better draw.

Of course I'm a passive-weak-tight nit, but you know. :)

I can see the possibility of villain holding a wrap, in which case we may be alright since we're holding blockers to his play. 2-pair still being a possibility of course.

I guess in the overall getting the stack in isn't a huge mistake against villain's range ... but I'd be sweatin' doing it, and probably expect to lose the pot.
<Big_Leon> start with the RAZZ tourney?
<pokerzen1> when did the razz tourney start?
<Big_Leon> starts in 2 minutes
<Big_Leon> just drew seats
<pokerzen1> too late then
<pokerzen1> damn damn damn
<Big_Leon> no, it's not too late gogogogogo
<pokerzen1> what's the tourney number?
<Big_Leon> 55852225
<Big_Leon> password is - irunbad i think
<Big_Leon> irunbad
<pokerzen1> made it :)
<pokerzen1> okay now how do you play razz?
<Big_Leon> i have no idea
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Postby Ojingo » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:48 am

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Postby Aisthesis » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:39 pm

Yeah, one of the "opening up" aspects I've been trying is raising a lot more OOP--I'm VERY picky about AA because I think the raise typically hurts your action if you do make your set. But I've basically started raising a lot of strong hands OOP, and this is definitely one of the hand types where I like a raise PF pretty much regardless of position.

Basically, with position I'll raise more hands and certainly a lot more AA hands. OOP I'm raising much stronger hands and only AA hands that have a lot more going for them than AA (pretty much AAds with a connector is enough, but I consider that very strong AA).

I'm more concerned about the post-flop aspects on this hand, though. I suppose one can still call and then bet upon hitting set (despite straights), flush (despite its not being the nuts) or straight (which is of course always the nuts). I think it's also fairly safe to assume that pairing the 7 or 8 reduces my outs to the point that I can't call the turn, but pairing the 2 (while bad against his actual hand) might put me ahead in actuality, because I definitely think top 2 is in his raising range.

I did just run some AA hands with hearts, and in the best case, I'm about a 2:1 underdog. What's interesting is that I think the lower level players (particularly at the 100 level) are less willing to raise with that--well, maybe in a HU pot. But it's MUCH worse for my hand than his set, where I'm really not in bad shape. I may even be a little ahead of 2 pair on the flop unless he has a decent straight draw with it (that kills at least one of my set cards).
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Postby Felonius_Monk » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:02 am

The Monkman J[c]

"Informer, you no say daddy me snow me Ill go blame,
A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
A licky boom boom down." - Snow, 1993
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Postby pokerzen » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:12 pm

<Big_Leon> start with the RAZZ tourney?
<pokerzen1> when did the razz tourney start?
<Big_Leon> starts in 2 minutes
<Big_Leon> just drew seats
<pokerzen1> too late then
<pokerzen1> damn damn damn
<Big_Leon> no, it's not too late gogogogogo
<pokerzen1> what's the tourney number?
<Big_Leon> 55852225
<Big_Leon> password is - irunbad i think
<Big_Leon> irunbad
<pokerzen1> made it :)
<pokerzen1> okay now how do you play razz?
<Big_Leon> i have no idea
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Postby Aisthesis » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:21 pm

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Postby pokerzen » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:25 am

I respect raises from any player with a PFR of 5%-12% ... (this is 6max) ... I like mine at about where it is ... because even though my number looks low ... the raises aren't AAxx hands ... although that's what I want to be put on by any observant opponent who sees how much I DON'T raise.

I was trying to raise a LOT in late position with playable hands, but found ultimately that it was costly as I wasn't able to continue in enough hands to pay for the raises.

The JJ99 hand I would raise in 3rd position or better. I don't think I raise anything from the SB or BB unless it's a re-raise to make it a stack play with AAxx.

Fortunately, in this game ... it doesn't really matter that much if you play well post-flop. :)

Back to the topic at hand ... you said you were more interested in post-flop than pre-flop play on this hand. I think I still maintain that I would be waiting for a better spot than to risk my stack oop with a drawing hand. Looking at the equity numbers your posting though ... maybe I'm underestimating the hand value overall. I'm getting the idea here that as long as you've got 40-60 buyins in your bankroll ... you may as well push here just cause.
<Big_Leon> start with the RAZZ tourney?
<pokerzen1> when did the razz tourney start?
<Big_Leon> starts in 2 minutes
<Big_Leon> just drew seats
<pokerzen1> too late then
<pokerzen1> damn damn damn
<Big_Leon> no, it's not too late gogogogogo
<pokerzen1> what's the tourney number?
<Big_Leon> 55852225
<Big_Leon> password is - irunbad i think
<Big_Leon> irunbad
<pokerzen1> made it :)
<pokerzen1> okay now how do you play razz?
<Big_Leon> i have no idea
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Postby DaFish » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:58 pm

Postflop looks fine, I think we're mostly going to be in coinflip situations, and rarely ahead or behind.
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